Plate scanners.......a step too far....?

[Otter]

You'll get a chance to defend yourself when you're stopped. They don't rush in and tackle you and don't give you a chance to talk. They'll check your registration, VIN, etc etc.

Many cities have already been using them. What's the big deal? :shrug:

These are instantaneous alerts, why worry?? Well, maybe the Calvo's in Berwyn Heights could tell you where the police had DAYS to check things out before they did anything. Remember, police can and will assume you are guilty, only the courts have to believe you're innocent. Of course, thats just my opinion.

 

[Baja28]

All sorts of proof of ID. And your point thats relevant to this?

My point is they already know all about you. Why do you feel you're going to be harmed because they can run your tag #? They're pulling info they already have. If you're clean, what's the worry? There are a lot more important things about government to fuss about.

 

[glhs837]

I know they know about me. Not worried about an officer pulling my tag, wouldn't be surprised if the NSA doesn't peek and who I am from time to time, given my job, and not bothered by that. Anyone searching for aircraft survivability systems info warrants a peek.

My beef with the scanners is that the MD state government is building a database of law abiding citizens locations. Why do they need that? If it passes me, scans me and finds I have no interesting flags, that should be the end. But no, it stores my tag number and date info, and GPS location and keeps it.

Would you be okay with an officer stopping you on the sidewalk, asking you for ID to clear you, and once your clear, taking your pic and GPS info and sending that into some "fusion center"?

 

[Baja28]

I know they know about me. Not worried about an officer pulling my tag, wouldn't be surprised if the NSA doesn't peek and who I am from time to time, given my job, and not bothered by that. Anyone searching for aircraft survivability systems info warrants a peek.

My beef with the scanners is that the MD state government is building a database of law abiding citizens locations. Why do they need that? If it passes me, scans me and finds I have no interesting flags, that should be the end. But no, it stores my tag number and date info, and GPS location and keeps it.

Would you be okay with an officer stopping you on the sidewalk, asking you for ID to clear you, and once your clear, taking your pic and GPS info and sending that into some "fusion center"?

Well, this would require more thought than I'm really willing to put into it...

They aren't taking your personal picture, they're scanning your tag. Now maybe your tag was stolen and on the wrong car. Wa La, they find your tag and have new leads on a crime. Maybe you use it to prove your innocence after being wrongly accused of being somewhere you weren't. :shrug: I dunno.... give me a good example of how this info could be used against us in a nefarious way.

I personally am not worried about it.

 

[migtig]

Well, this would require more thought than I'm really willing to put into it...

They aren't taking your personal picture, they're scanning your tag. Now maybe your tag was stolen and on the wrong car. Wa La, they find your tag and have new leads on a crime. Maybe you use it to prove your innocence after being wrongly accused of being somewhere you weren't. :shrug: I dunno.... give me a good example of how this info could be used against us in a nefarious way.

I personally am not worried about it.

I'm late to the party...but let's say you were at a "tea party" and the police were there to keep the ruly mob under control. In process they had scanned all the tags parked out at the "tea party". And then that information on you being at the "tea party" was sent to a database in MD. Once there that information was culled and given/sold to an organization that was "anti-tea party". Just a random thought. I can actually think of worse scenarios. Your car parked at a gun shop and then the police executing a no knock on your house to look for illegal weapons...or even worse. But admittedly this is all of the top of my head without too much thought.

 

[glhs837]

If my tag was reported stolen, that would be the part of this I am okay with. Using it to match scanned plates with a"hot list" of tags of interest, ones that got on the list through legal action of some kind.

I mentioned before, this database at the fusion center. What are the rules for access? Who makes sure there are no unauthorized access to this data? Hel, who is authorized to access this data?

I have been a very vocal person against red light cameras and speed cameras. Not to hard to find me if you look. So whats to stop someone in state govt (who rakes in millions in revenue from these things) from pulling my tag number to see where I have been scanned? "Mr GLHS, we see you spend a lot of time parked in front of a pornographic bookstore, how would that sound at a public hearing?"

Not long ago, the MSP police decided to infiltrate a bunch of organizations who had mounted protests. Nothing violent, these groups had never done anything illegal, nor promoted such.

Spying uncovered - baltimoresun.com

One guy was added to a watch list for drug dealers, even though he was never thought to have any connection to drugs.

Sorry, you dont collect location data on law abiding citizens without a reason. It's part of that "We, the government, dont trust, you, the citizens" thought process. And that makes me unhappy. Just like LEOs who think "Failure to do as I say, even if its an illegal order, is justification for an azzwhooping" Government serves, it doesnt rule.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

:shrug: I dunno.... give me a good example of how this info could be used against us in a nefarious way.

I personally am not worried about it.

some minimum wage flunky gets your info wrong in the db


so instead of being Mikey the Electrician, you are Mikey the Child Molester with an FTA Warrant ... and you get to spend a few days in the county lockup and spend a few 1000 bucks on lawyers ... because you know mike,

"Computers Don't Lie"


and you are forced to defend yourself ......... more information stored in computers then less safe we are because of a blind faith in "The System"






how many people get automated speed camera tickets - with the WRONG plate number

 

[itsrequired]

I'm late to the party...but let's say you were at a "tea party" and the police were there to keep the ruly mob under control. The problem with this scenario is that the police could do this with our without scan readers. They could simply pull the tag number and have it checked. In process they had scanned all the tags parked out at the "tea party". And then that information on you being at the "tea party" was sent to a database in MD. So now we have gone to corrupt police. You are going to have corruption in any situation, but there are checks and balances in order to prevent this. Once there that information was culled and given/sold to an organization that was "anti-tea party". Just a random thought. I can actually think of worse scenarios. Your car parked at a gun shop and then the police executing a no knock on your house to look for illegal weapons...or even worse. But admittedly this is all of the top of my head without too much thought.

Your second scenario is just stupid. Why, if you are in front of a gun shop would police think you have illegal weapons? Why would a judge authorize a search warrant based on that information?

 

[itsrequired]

some minimum wage flunky gets your info wrong in the db


so instead of being Mikey the Electrician, you are Mikey the Child Molester with an FTA Warrant ... and you get to spend a few days in the county lockup and spend a few 1000 bucks on lawyers ... because you know mike,

"Computers Don't Lie"


and you are forced to defend yourself ......... more information stored in computers then less safe we are because of a blind faith in "The System"






how many people get automated speed camera tickets - with the WRONG plate number

How does an electrician's information get put into with a child molester's information. Your scenario is completely ridiculous because there are two different "flunkies" who is inputing data on electrician and child molesters. There are also safeguards to ensure that the information is put in correctly, at least in the criminal justice world. I can't testify to the electrician's data base.

 

[migtig]

Your second scenario is just stupid. Why, if you are in front of a gun shop would police think you have illegal weapons? Why would a judge authorize a search warrant based on that information?

My goodness you are testy. I said I gave off the cuff scenarios. And honestly, they are not that far fetched. Judges grant all kinds of search warrants based on our new-ish terrorism laws. If all the information is going to some central database, with unknown control factors - who knows what the possible outcomes could be, who that information could be given or sold to, how things could be "interpreted' by the all knowing government authority. It can have some disturbing consequences and I can see the OPs POV.

Fine if the police are doing this for the right reasons, however, I believe defined controls should be in place for the database, so that things don't happen for the wrong reasons down the road. Location control of citizens seems like the book 1984 has come to life.

 

[glhs837]

Normally, the database that contains a law-abiding electricians wouldn't contain child molesters, and vice versa. Thats true. However, that's another issue with "data fusion". Now, the data of law abiding citizens of no interest to law enforcement is "fused" with data on criminals and others of interest. Now they are both in the same database.

As for errors, most of this process is automated, with no review. Hell, we cant get the legally required review of automated tickets done right, how could the possibly review the character recognition of this many plates? Thats, right, they cannot, because there is no video or still picture to review.

 

[itsrequired]

Normally, the database that contains a law-abiding electricians wouldn't contain child molesters, and vice versa. Thats true. However, that's another issue with "data fusion". Now, the data of law abiding citizens of no interest to law enforcement is "fused" with data on criminals and others of interest. Now they are both in the same database.

As for errors, most of this process is automated, with no review. Hell, we cant get the legally required review of automated tickets done right, how could the possibly review the character recognition of this many plates? Thats, right, they cannot, because there is no video or still picture to review.

Stay on track here. If you are all over the place, it's impossible to discuss all the crazy scenarios you have. We are talking about automatic tag readers, sex offender data bases, and electrical licenses. You have no idea how many times a police officer has called out your tag. There are dozens of reasons a police officer might do that and you never know about it. That's been going on since the days when the National Crime Information Center was established. Every time your name or tag has been querried, that information has been stored. This isn't something new. Now law enforcement has enhanced their capabilities to apprehend those breaking the law. there is no fourth amendment violation. You are not being stopped, detained, or targeted in any way. There is no evidence that you are even driving the vehicle.

 

[itsrequired]

My goodness you are testy. I said I gave off the cuff scenarios. And honestly, they are not that far fetched. Judges grant all kinds of search warrants based on our new-ish terrorism laws. If all the information is going to some central database, with unknown control factors - who knows what the possible outcomes could be, who that information could be given or sold to, how things could be "interpreted' by the all knowing government authority. It can have some disturbing consequences and I can see the OPs POV.

Fine if the police are doing this for the right reasons, however, I believe defined controls should be in place for the database, so that things don't happen for the wrong reasons down the road. Location control of citizens seems like the book 1984 has come to life.

I'm not testy at all. You gave your opinion, and I gave mine. Your opinion comes from a place of supposition and conjecture while mine comes from actual experience in the field we are discussing.

While you say there unknown control factors, I know there are controls. You suppose that a judge might issue a warrant on some far out theory while my experience proves that there has to be probable cause to issue the warrant.

Don't be upset when you talk out of your *** and someone calls it what it is.

 

[glhs837]

You all wanted scenarios, you got'em. Officer calls in my tags for a reason, correct, not just out of boredom? He doesnt call in every tag he sees, correct?

So he called in, what data is stored? Time, place, location, reason for query? Where is that stored? I never claimed violation of anything, just that I feel its wrong to build a database of law abiding citizens movements.

 

[itsrequired]

You all wanted scenarios, you got'em. Officer calls in my tags for a reason, correct, not just out of boredom? He doesnt call in every tag he sees, correct?

So he called in, what data is stored? Time, place, location, reason for query? Where is that stored? I never claimed violation of anything, just that I feel its wrong to build a database of law abiding citizens movements.

No, an officer can and sometimes they do call your tag out for no reason. A simple check. It's done all the time. The data stored is whatever the officer calls in. If he calls in xxx 111 on 237 at 1700 hours, that is what will be stored with the tag.

It is true that an officer doesn't call every tag he sees....but what is wrong with knowing where a particular tag is at on any given day. The tag doesn't necessarily correlate to a person, or even a vehicle for that matter. How does knowing where a particular tag is located hurt anyone?

 

[glhs837]

Its wrong because the government isn't my parent, and shouldn't be keeping tabs on me, "just because". This the attitudinal thing that scares me, the attitude of "dont worry about it, trust us, we are here to help".

Doing a thing just because you can does not mean its a good thing. So, you mentioned you were speaking from experience, is that experience local LEO type stuff, or up in the data storage side of things?

 

[itsrequired]

Its wrong because the government isn't my parent, and shouldn't be keeping tabs on me, "just because". This the attitudinal thing that scares me, the attitude of "dont worry about it, trust us, we are here to help".

Doing a thing just because you can does not mean its a good thing. So, you mentioned you were speaking from experience, is that experience local LEO type stuff, or up in the data storage side of things?

NOBODY is keeping tabs on you! Your vehicle is on a public road. They are not stopping you, nor are they targeting you. They are copying your tag number. It has nothing to do with an individual. It doesn't even identify the vehicle. Simply the tag number.

 

[itsbob]

No, an officer can and sometimes they do call your tag out for no reason. A simple check. It's done all the time. The data stored is whatever the officer calls in. If he calls in xxx 111 on 237 at 1700 hours, that is what will be stored with the tag.

It is true that an officer doesn't call every tag he sees....but what is wrong with knowing where a particular tag is at on any given day. The tag doesn't necessarily correlate to a person, or even a vehicle for that matter. How does knowing where a particular tag is located hurt anyone?

This is why cars shouldn't be registered in the first place..

Not the goverenment's job to keep tabs on us, and the goverenment shouldn't be able to call in a tag number and get all the information short of our first born..

And I'd question the constitutionality of randomly calling in plate numbers just because.. If I'm not doing anything wrong, WHY should they be checking on my tag?

Just think, without plates, what good would speed and red light cameras be?? Cops would actually have to go out and do their jobs instead of cameras doing it for them.

BUT if we are going to let them make us have license plates, and registered vehicles, what's wrong with letting them just continue down the path with unconstitutional laws and procedures? You let the government have an inch, and they'll just keep taking .. and taking..

 

[itsrequired]

This is why cars shouldn't be registered in the first place..

Not the goverenment's job to keep tabs on us, and the goverenment shouldn't be able to call in a tag number and get all the information short of our first born..

And I'd question the constitutionality of randomly calling in plate numbers just because.. If I'm not doing anything wrong, WHY should they be checking on my tag?

Just think, without plates, what good would speed and red light cameras be?? Cops would actually have to go out and do their jobs instead of cameras doing it for them.

BUT if we are going to let them make us have license plates, and registered vehicles, what's wrong with letting them just continue down the path with unconstitutional laws and procedures? You let the government have an inch, and they'll just keep taking .. and taking..

How exactly do tag readers violate any constitutional provisions?

 

[itsbob]

Yea because using plate scanners to catch crooks is akin to rounding up millions of jews for execution.

What kind of information is stored along with your vehicle registration??

Now they combine the arms registration with your vehicle, so that before a stop, when a cop calls in your plate, they get a warning that you MAY be armed..

So now they know you own a gun, they know your address.. and thanks to the driver's license you're required to have they know what you look like..

That's WAAAAY to much information for the government to have on a private citizen.

And I'd also bet (as they report to the insurance companies) they have all of the information on anyone insured on any of your cars.

A little data mining, a BAD government can round up any of a number of "types of miscreants" they so chose without as much as waking your neighbors.