Pope says atheists can do good and go to heaven
- Thread starter Zguy28
- Start date
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
Silly.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
Santa is coming to town. He'd be so proud of you!
As for your actual point, hardly anyone is good for goodness sake. The person doing good gets something personal out of it, whether it be the reward of a bump in self-esteem or the reward of Heaven. Neither one is a bad thing, just pointing out that an Atheist doing good does indeed get a reward. So with that in mind, the Atheist is not more or less good than the Christian. I don't think either is particularly altruistic in the strictest sense of the term.
hotcoffee
New Member
Our Bible says:
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Nobody's perfect.... right? Well except God....
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Nobody's perfect.... right? Well except God....
Zguy28
New Member
Everybody else can do good things. But if the sole source of goodness is found in the creator God, and a person rejects the creator and his word, what does that make him/her?
Christian theology believes that the world is fundamentally good, including people who are made in his image. Its rebellion that brought, and continues to bring, evil into the world and destroys the goodness God made.
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Today, I would have to disagree with you Zguy, on your statement "Christian theology believes that the world is fundamentally good, including people who are made in his image."
Back in the day, maybe even into the early 1900's, theology would teach that, but reality since then, that is another thing.
Today, the world, not Christianity, is teaching that people are "fundamentally good". As long the God of the universe is omitted. Look around at society here and abroad. Do you think that Christianity, as preached in the Bible, would agree with your assessment?
Sin belongs to man, no one else. We all have it. Governments today are doing all they can, legally and illegally, to completely push that thought out of the picture, by saying that man is good. No god necessary, out of individuals or govt. To them, man is in control, not God.
Man is good, in the context and image of God. Outside of that image, it's a free for all.
Ted Nugent - Free For All - YouTube
Zguy28
New Member
Let me clarify, or rather let me let the Word clarify.
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. - Genesis 1:31 ESV
This is what I meant. I certainly believe in Total Depravity, so don't take me the wrong way.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
I just came across this.
ATHEISM: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits, which then turned into dinosaurs.
When put this way it sounds just as whack as Christianity does.
ATHEISM: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason creating everything, and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits, which then turned into dinosaurs.
When put this way it sounds just as whack as Christianity does.
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
Who defines goodness? Who has the authority to do so? Is goodness manufactured, or is it a state of being? Does goodness equate with perfection? Who defines perfection? How does one accurately and thoroughly observe and measure goodness or perfection? What's the standard here, when our best means of observing and defining things are only accurate to within certain tolerances or parameters which we imperfect people assign? Is perfection repeatable in the laboratory or in the field? Is there a flawless mind?
Dogma, doctrine, morality, theory, and philosophy are all handy little tools which can get in the way, distracting us from experiencing a unique-to-the-person relationship none can fully understand.
And these are just my imperfect, indeed flawed observations and comments on the matter. In a lifetime of study and thought, I'll never fully "get it."
Dogma, doctrine, morality, theory, and philosophy are all handy little tools which can get in the way, distracting us from experiencing a unique-to-the-person relationship none can fully understand.
And these are just my imperfect, indeed flawed observations and comments on the matter. In a lifetime of study and thought, I'll never fully "get it."
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
So anyway, in the context of my previous post, it seems to me that we're all pretty presumptuous when we start babbling about God and related topics based on our own wisdom or best guesses. And it's audacious, in my view, to demand evidence proving someone else's perception. It is not my job to convince anybody of anything, merely to communicate what I know or think I know. Telling someone they're going to hell, or heaven for that matter, says that I've set myself up as a judge when I have no qualification or authority to act in that capacity. All I can do is share what I believe is the Good News with people, and leave the rest up to God as I understand Him. If there is good in these otherwise pointless arguments we engage in here, it's to simply reveal some ideas while stimulating thought on these topics. What God has planned for people to do with all that, I can't presume to know.
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Let me clarify, or rather let me let the Word clarify.
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. - Genesis 1:31 ESV
This is what I meant. I certainly believe in Total Depravity, so don't take me the wrong way.
You clarified it, up to a point - all was good (Gen 1:31), but that was before God decided to create Adam in His image, then Eve (I believe in His image of goodness, not physical - praise the Lord for the physical part, for sure - I couldn't handle carrying and having a baby!). They were perfect as well, until that fateful event with that old deceiver, satan, that changed the course of our goodness, tragically, in the eyes of God forever.
Man should, and can be very, very good, but our definition of good (being and performing good) is not His definition of good (perfection).
But it sure is a good thing to keep trying as hard as we can to live up to His expectations, and that starts with becoming a member of His family, and only through personal salvation from the work on the cross of His Son.
This is a good thread.
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itsbob
I bowl overhand
Actually Adam is a mistranslation. Adam isn't a single person nor a man.. the correct translation would be all human kind. So God didn't create one person ADAM, he created all humankind ADAM and populated the earth. Eve was an addition to the bible after the mistranslation led to the earth with one man. Eve was not taken from the original manuscript.
Zguy28
New Member
I honestly think the New Testament disagrees with you. The whole point of the Great Commission is convincing people of the truth. Its for God's sake and for their eternal sake.
Zguy28
New Member
Prove this claim please.
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
My take on the same thing is that we plant the seeds and He yields the increase, but I do see your point.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
Prove this claim please.
I'm guessing he saw this on Bible Secrets Revealed on the History channel last night and won't remember the justification for it.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Between the Ancient Alien series and any of their programming with the word Jesus or Bible in it, the history channel has become a joke. Strangely I do like their underground series or whatever it's called.