Prayer For Muslims During Hajj

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Wrong again. Read the Koran.

I have read the Quran several times in different translations and I see it as a continuation of the Bible.

The Quran speaks of Christians and Jews as the sister religions of Islam and I agree.

 

[Toxick]

The term they use (infidel) does not mean non-Muslim.

The claim against the USA is being an infidel to our Christianity.

Could you please provide a link to something that backs this up please?

Anything written by the leader or spokesman of a radial Islamic fundamentalist group, like a manifesto or list of demands, would satisy my curiosity about this point.

They are asking us to behave like Christians and stop our immoral infidelities.

Again, I'd like a link which reinforces this assertion.

Something from the horse's mouth would be ideal.


Because frankly, I have an extremely hard time trying to figure out why a Muslim would want a Christian to behave like a Christian. Not only do I not care if Buddhists behave as Buddhists, or whether Jews behave like Jews, I can't even imagine the mindset which makes caring about such things possible.

 

[This_person]

The offences by the USA like torture and criminal wars and lying claims, hypocrisy of our President, senseless murder of Muslims, crimes against humanity, etc., are very valid justifications to defend against the American immoralities and its infidelities.

If any of these things you claim were true, they would be reasons to take action within our country, within our system of justice. That's not happening, even with a Congress that despises the President. Do you know why? These claims are false!

That the criminal Muslims want us to act like moral and lawful Christians and then they will stop the terrorism is not an excessive request for peace.

Telling me to act in a certain way or you will "destroy" me and my way of life is called "wrong". It's a form of tyranny that I personally will not abide.

It does appear that you and President Bush are allowing your fears to govern your actions so now the USA lives in a senseless and immoral fear.

The "fear", Jimmy, is that we will have to continue to take actions against a group of thugs that feel their vision of how I should act, how any of us should act, is justification for "destroying" us or anything about us. My belief is that our president (and I) do not want to hurt anyone. But, we won't abide by someone hurting us, either.

Neither you nor Bush speaks for "we" all, but for those that keep the USA doing wrong (as told above = torture, murder, war, etc.) then other people all over the world are very justified in defying and retaliating against your kind of violent religious beliefs.

You mean, peace? That violent religious belief? See, the quote where you tell of the Koran saying to destroy us was where you were justifying the attacks on us before. No one has the right to take that kind of action against us. We offer peace - stop attacking, so will we. They offer peace - act like we tell you to, or we'll attack more. Which is more peacelike? Which is more moral?

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Could you please provide a link to something that backs this up please?

Anything written by the leader or spokesman of a radial Islamic fundamentalist group, like a manifesto or list of demands, would satisy my curiosity about this point.

Again, I'd like a link which reinforces this assertion.

Something from the horse's mouth would be ideal.

I have a couple links but real hard info from our paranoid gov is not readily available for the land of free speech and free press.

But one is the recent Bin Laden tape report link HERE and Bin Laden denounces American war-ing and human rights and particulary for American to "embrace Islam" which would be correctly interpreted as embrace the submission to God as that is what Islam means.

It would be like saying to follow Jesus teachings which is different then saying for one to join Christianity.

These specific words have powerful importance and difference to us religious fanatics.

And the second reinforcement link is to the Holy Quran link HERE and try reading the Surah of #19 MARYAM (MARY) as it calls Mary the virgin Mother of Jesus the messiah and that link is not the only translation as there are other translations available in book stores and in the public libraries free for anyone to read.

And it is not just that one "Surah (book) of Mary" because all through the Holy Quran it sings the praises of Christianity and of Judaism and of Jesus and Moses and many MANY others.

Because frankly, I have an extremely hard time trying to figure out why a Muslim would want a Christian to behave like a Christian. Not only do I not care if Buddhists behave as Buddhists, or whether Jews behave like Jews, I can't even imagine the mindset which makes caring about such things possible.

The reason is very clear in that the Islamic Countries and the Muslim people take their religion and God very extremely seriously, and I say rightly so.

Therefore the Muslims want the USA to behave like Christians instead of infidels is because the USA is the one that is attacking and threatening them.

We do not care about Buddhist being Buddhist or Jews being Jews because they are not attacking us or threatening us as we so-called Christians are doing to the Muslims.

If there was a Buddhist that was kicking a Christian while he were down then the Christian might say "would the Buddha do such a thing" in order to persuade the attacker to stop, and that is the point with Christians attacking the Muslims and the Muslims are saying "would Jesus want you to do such a thing?"

The Muslims do not object to us being Christian or Jew but they do object to our USA torturing people, unjust wars, forced injustices against the Palestinians, and pushing the American immoralities onto the Islamic population.

That is their message and that is the point.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Here! Here!

The muslims are on a mission to spread their way of life and have been at war against the infedels (us) since the beginning of christianity. In the end it all comes down to, kill or be killed!

You have the time line reversed. Islam was not invented by Muhammad until about 600 years after Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven, so Muslims have been at war against the infidels (all those not Islamic and some Islamic sects sects think other Islamic sects are infidels.) since the beginning of Islam, not Christianity.

Not picking a fight. Just setting the sequence in order.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Muslims have been at war against the infidels (all those not Islamic and some Islamic sects sects think other Islamic sects are infidels.) since the beginning of Islam, not Christianity.

Not picking a fight. Just setting the sequence in order.

2A has a point here in that Muslims see other Muslims doing wrong as being infidels - meaning infidelity to Islam.

So this shows that the term "infidel" does not mean Christian or Jew or even Muslim because infidel means infidelity to God like as in sin and sinning.

Telling the USA that it is an infidel and to stop being an infidel means telling the USA to stop sinning.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You never asked me to explain myself so you could understand where I was coming from or if maybe you misinterpreted my position somehow. Instead you resorted to name calling. It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with people incapable of being open minded or mature enough to hear different justifyable opinions before judgement on a persons belief is handed down.

This is why the conversation between you and I is over. It is because of your childish retort to name name calling.

Glass houses? Just more accusations.... End of discussion....

God bless, I'll pray for God to impart some wisdom upon you....

TJ is a scientist don't you know? Or so he has posted. That makes his opinion superior to yours ... in his own mind. Of course his opinion was fed to him by a bunch of college professors that would not be teaching if they could do. TJ has faith in them. He does not recognize it as faith, but that is what it is. Theories are not proven, so if you believe in one of more theories, it is by faith. I submit that scientists believe in many theories so have faith.

The scientists that recognize that the theories proffered by men do not answer the greater questions of life often find God in their quest for greater understanding. TJ hasn't reached that point yet. He may. He may not, but it won't be because he has not been exposed to the Truth of the Bible and the gift of salvation.

 

[This_person]

Bin Laden denounces American war-ing and human rights and particulary for American to "embrace Islam" which would be correctly interpreted as embrace the submission to God as that is what Islam means.

And, is it being a good Muslim to order others to kill innocent people because they're not practicing their own religion in what that particular Muslim thinks is the right way? You say above that IS being a good Muslim. Do you not see that they have no right to "destroy" us for not "turning" the way THEY want?

Therefore the Muslims want the USA to behave like Christians instead of infidels is because the USA is the one that is attacking and threatening them.

We threaten them how? By blowing up their embassies? Their ships? Their buildings? This is why I say it's defensive on our part, offensive on theirs. They attacked first (second, third....)

The Muslims do not object to us being Christian or Jew but they do object to our USA torturing people, unjust wars, forced injustices against the Palestinians, and pushing the American immoralities onto the Islamic population.

That is their message and that is the point.

Too bad for you that not a single one of those accusations holds any water. Please, please tell me what possible injustices could be put on the Palestinians by the USA when France first suggested, Britain promised, and eventually the UN gave the land to Isreal and "Palestine" (which has never existed as a sovereign land), and the "Palestinians" just refused, and have continued to refuse, to be self ruled. The rest of your accusations have been rufuted repeatedly, but this one you keep making is assinine.

 

[tommyjones]

TJ is a scientist don't you know? Or so he has posted. That makes his opinion superior to yours ... in his own mind. Of course his opinion was fed to him by a bunch of college professors that would not be teaching if they could do. TJ has faith in them. He does not recognize it as faith, but that is what it is. Theories are not proven, so if you believe in one of more theories, it is by faith. I submit that scientists believe in many theories so have faith.

The scientists that recognize that the theories proffered by men do not answer the greater questions of life often find God in their quest for greater understanding. TJ hasn't reached that point yet. He may. He may not, but it won't be because he has not been exposed to the Truth of the Bible and the gift of salvation.

please dont talk for me, it only goes to prove your ignorance and prejudice.


as for the glass houses comment, it was in response to his reading comprehesion remark. if you cant see that as the beginning of the mudslingin i dont really care.


BTW, some of my professers were nuns, but thanks for playing.....

 

[2ndAmendment]

2A has a point here in that Muslims see other Muslims doing wrong as being infidels - meaning infidelity to Islam.

So this shows that the term "infidel" does not mean Christian or Jew or even Muslim because infidel means infidelity to God like as in sin and sinning.

Telling the USA that it is an infidel and to stop being an infidel means telling the USA to stop sinning.

No. You got it wrong. The term infidel to a Muslim means a person who does not believe in Islam. The reason some Islamic sects believe other Islamic sects are infidels is that they do not believe the same way, much like denominations in Christianity. The big difference is, with some notable exceptions like Ireland, Christian denominations don't go around killing each other. Ireland was actually more about British rule and Irish independence than Catholic vs Protestant.

The Islamic sects are:
* Ahmadiyya
* Shi'a
* Sufism
* Sunni
and many within each sect see the members of the other sects as infidels, and they war against each other.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

And, is it being a good Muslim to order others to kill innocent people because they're not practicing their own religion in what that particular Muslim thinks is the right way? You say above that IS being a good Muslim.

Your whole post is nothing but beligerant religious bigotry against Islam based in your petty fear and it is not my words as you so pompously claim.

I believe that some few Muslims are correct in that your kind of mentality and bigotry can only be reasoned with through violence and that is why they use violent methods.

For me I say we need to get your kind (and Bush kind) out of power and keep that bigotry out of the power in the USA and replace it with moral and upstanding leaders that do not act out of bigoted fears.

 

[This_person]

Your whole post is nothing but beligerant religious bigotry against Islam.

I believe that some few Muslims are correct in that your kind of mentality and bigotry can only be reasoned with through violence and that is why they use violent methods.

We task them to attack us?

Do you not see that they have no right to "destroy" us for not "turning" the way THEY want?

We threaten them how? By blowing up their embassies? Their ships? Their buildings? This is why I say it's defensive on our part, offensive on theirs. They attacked first (second, third....)

Please, please tell me what possible injustices could be put on the Palestinians by the USA when France first suggested, Britain promised, and eventually the UN gave the land to Isreal and "Palestine" (which has never existed as a sovereign land), and the "Palestinians" just refused, and have continued to refuse, to be self ruled. This claim you keep making is assinine.

 

[2ndAmendment]

please dont talk for me, it only goes to prove your ignorance and prejudice.


as for the glass houses comment, it was in response to his reading comprehesion remark. if you cant see that as the beginning of the mudslingin i dont really care.


BTW, some of my professers were nuns, but thanks for playing.....

Gee. I am a well educated person and yet the "scientist" calls me ingnorant. And our "scientist" has a real problem with spelling, English grammar, and proper capitalization and punctuation. Is English your native tongue?

Seriously. You come in here all high and mighty telling all Christians that we are wrong. The Christians in this forum did not come looking for your opinion. You have expressed it; all Christians are stupid for believing in God. We've seen. Telling us over and over does nothing but prove your prejudice against Christians.

 

[tommyjones]

Gee. I am a well educated person and yet the "scientist" calls me ingnorant. And our "scientist" has a real problem with spelling, English grammar, and proper capitalization and punctuation. Is English your native tongue?

Seriously. You come in here all high and mighty telling all Christians that we are wrong. The Christians in this forum did not come looking for your opinion. You have expressed it; all Christians are stupid for believing in God. We've seen. Telling us over and over does nothing but prove your prejudice against Christians.

i dont go around stating your opinion, you attempting to state mine is ignorany becasue you dont know.

what i do in here is debate people, sometimes i discuss my own beliefs, but usually not.

and i dont think people who believe in god are stupid, just the jackazzes that think they have a corner on understanding what god wants from us and then use their self appointed position of deity to tell us all we aren't doing it right.

 

[GreenHornet]

You have the time line reversed. Islam was not invented by Muhammad until about 600 years after Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven, so Muslims have been at war against the infidels (all those not Islamic and some Islamic sects sects think other Islamic sects are infidels.) since the beginning of Islam, not Christianity.

Not picking a fight. Just setting the sequence in order.

I stand corrected. We can still fight if you want to..... Do you like mud wrestling or jello wrestling?

GH

 

[GreenHornet]

Gee. I am a well educated person and yet the "scientist" calls me ingnorant. And our "scientist" has a real problem with spelling, English grammar, and proper capitalization and punctuation. Is English your native tongue?

Seriously. You come in here all high and mighty telling all Christians that we are wrong. The Christians in this forum did not come looking for your opinion. You have expressed it; all Christians are stupid for believing in God. We've seen. Telling us over and over does nothing but prove your prejudice against Christians.

Don't feel so bad.... Tommyjones is really big on name calling, he finds that it helps him get his point across. Didn't you know that all intelligent debaters resort to name calling

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

We task them to attack us?

Do you not see that they have no right to "destroy" us for not "turning" the way THEY want?

We threaten them how? By blowing up their embassies? Their ships? Their buildings? This is why I say it's defensive on our part, offensive on theirs. They attacked first (second, third....)

Please, please tell me what possible injustices could be put on the Palestinians by the USA when France first suggested, Britain promised, and eventually the UN gave the land to Isreal and "Palestine" (which has never existed as a sovereign land), and the "Palestinians" just refused, and have continued to refuse, to be self ruled. This claim you keep making is assinine.

Same questions over and over again and I am expected to play as a child with him.

The answer already given in this thread post # 40 link HERE.

And of course there are other post in this same thread with greater detail and T_p searches some other threads for irrelevant post of mine and does not read what is said here.

 

[tommyjones]

Don't feel so bad.... Tommyjones is really big on name calling, he finds that it helps him get his point across. Didn't you know that all intelligent debaters resort to name calling

your right i should make acusations about people's inteligence and reading ability like my heros GH and 2ndA instead

 

[2ndAmendment]

i dont go around stating your opinion, you attempting to state mine is ignorany becasue you dont know.

what i do in here is debate people, sometimes i discuss my own beliefs, but usually not.

and i dont think people who believe in god are stupid, just the jackazzes that think they have a corner on understanding what god wants from us and then use their self appointed position of deity to tell us all we aren't doing it right.

Thanks for playing. You don't debate, or if you consider what you do as debate, you don't do it well. Debate involves the expression of competing or opposing ideas. By your own admission, you do not discuss your own beliefs, ergo, what you do is not debate.

What you do is belittle and besmirch others and their beliefs neither of which is debate.

 

[This_person]

Same questions over and over again and I am expected to play as a child with him.

This thread is not about me. I'm trying to get you to stay on topic.

Which, if you would answer the questions (which are not even close to being answered in post 40), it would help stay on topic.