Price of Gasoline.

dck4shrt

New Member
Bruzilla said:
I agree that the $100 deal is lunacy, but can you name me one country where conservation has resulted in lower gas prices? I've been to most of the World's countries on behalf of our Navy and I haven't seen one yet.

I can't name one country because it won't happen in that manner. If you and I and everyone else conserves, the price would go down for everyone, me, you, the fine citizens of Norway, and every other country that uses the stuff. If there are major supply increases, the price would go down for everyone.

As clearly as I can state this: Oil is bought and sold freely on an open global market. A barrel burned in Australia has as much effect on the supply and demand in the US as one burned in the US (understand this?).

It's not as if the Japanese people conserved then the price of Japan's oil goes down. Japan doesn't buy oil. Each individual consumer does (corporation, government individual), with equal impact on the market place in terms of units consumed. If Japan uses less, it's good for us and them. If I use less, it's good for me and you. A lot of people need to chip in to make that work, virtually no one in this country is doing anything but complain about it.
 
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Bruzilla

Guest
dck4shrt said:
I can't name one country because it won't happen in that manner. If you and I and everyone else conserves, the price would go down for everyone, me, you, the fine citizens of Norway, and every other country that uses the stuff. If there are major supply increases, the price would go down for everyone.

As clearly as I can state this: Oil is bought and sold freely on an open global market. A barrel burned in Australia has as much effect on the supply and demand in the US as one burned in the US (understand this?).

It's not as if the Japanese people conserved then the price of Japan's oil goes down. Japan doesn't buy oil. Each individual consumer does (corporation, government individual), with equal impact on the market place in terms of units consumed. If Japan uses less, it's good for us and them. If I use less, it's good for me and you. A lot of people need to chip in to make that work, virtually no one in this country is doing anything but complain about it.

Your first mistake is that you forget that at this point in time there are no alternatives to oil. Absent any alternatives, if everyone concerves across the board the price of oil would not go down, but oil production would. If we cut consumption across the board OPEC can decrease production and demand higher prices to make up for the loss to their revenues since they don't have to worry about hearing that their customers will go elsewehere or buy a different product.

Your second mistake is in thinking that conservation is anything but a transitory thing. We are a country that demands growth in our economy and our lifestyles. We like big cars, road trips, AC, and turning up the heat in winter. Yes, you can get a lot of folks to conserve for a short period of time when prices get high, but they won't do it for long.

You're right about the way that oil is sold globally, but the point that you're missing is we don't have to do business that way. We should be de-globablizing oil - not paying through the nose to keep it globalized. We quit developing oil fields in the US because at $20 a barrel it wasn't worth the effort. So let's say we benchmark US crude at $35 a barrel. That makes it profitable to drill and develop US fields while keeping prices at about $1 to $1.50 a gallon. We tell OPEC to stuff it and we use our own oil. We only have to make up about a 45% hit to our current oil consumption and we have more than enough oil to do that.

We used to rely on US oil for most of our needs, and we didn't move away from that because of lack of oil, just lack of profitability. Now that we're acclimated to paying more for oil lets benchmark the price of our oil and get off the global bandwagon.
 

dck4shrt

New Member
Bruzilla said:
Your first mistake is that you forget that at this point in time there are no alternatives to oil. Absent any alternatives, if everyone concerves across the board the price of oil would not go down, but oil production would. If we cut consumption across the board OPEC can decrease production and demand higher prices to make up for the loss to their revenues since they don't have to worry about hearing that their customers will go elsewehere or buy a different product.

Your second mistake is in thinking that conservation is anything but a transitory thing. We are a country that demands growth in our economy and our lifestyles. We like big cars, road trips, AC, and turning up the heat in winter. Yes, you can get a lot of folks to conserve for a short period of time when prices get high, but they won't do it for long.

You're right about the way that oil is sold globally, but the point that you're missing is we don't have to do business that way. We should be de-globablizing oil - not paying through the nose to keep it globalized. We quit developing oil fields in the US because at $20 a barrel it wasn't worth the effort. So let's say we benchmark US crude at $35 a barrel. That makes it profitable to drill and develop US fields while keeping prices at about $1 to $1.50 a gallon. We tell OPEC to stuff it and we use our own oil. We only have to make up about a 45% hit to our current oil consumption and we have more than enough oil to do that.

We used to rely on US oil for most of our needs, and we didn't move away from that because of lack of oil, just lack of profitability. Now that we're acclimated to paying more for oil lets benchmark the price of our oil and get off the global bandwagon.

Show me some numbers that says we have enough oil reserves, at any price, proven or unproven to sustain 25+ million barrels per day of consumption (for at least 25 years). Plain and simple, we don't. Most in the know would say we have 20 years of oil left under our feet (if we were to stop importing), and then it's over. Alaska and Texas have been past their peak production for decades. 80% of the oil that was originally below Texas and Oklahoma is gone. Offshore resources, perhaps, could hold some promise, but this is very costly stuff and very incremental in terms of finds. As we stand today, if we were to fully exploit our remaining oil resources, it would be sold on a global market to the highest bidder. If we were to try to deglobalize it as you suggest, we wouldn't have enough left. Russia, Iran, Venezuela, and a lot of the other oil exporters are playing us pretty well by nationalizing as much of their oil as they can for either their own use,to ensure that the profits come back home and not to Exxon, or to use as geopolitical capital. We can't act like Russia or Bolivia and secure our oil future by nationalizing the system. We don't have enough oil under our feet or under the caribou's feet to make your plan last more than a decade. What are we going to do, slap tarriffs on foreign oil?

Your point that our country demands luxury is a good one. The proof is on the road, where at this point in time few of us obviously care about how much oil we consume. The short-sightedness of this line of thought is that there are price point going forward where we are going to suffer big time. They have us by the balls, and if we want to burn oil we are going to pay for it, until it breaks our bank, until we demand alternatives, or until we consume less (as a matter of lifestyle change or technological advance). We think we 'need' a high-rolling lifestyle, this will, as a matter of fact, change as oil prices increase. Conservation will not be a vogue concept, it will be necessary. As Cheney has stated, the market will take care of conservation. To think otherwise is to contradict all known laws of economics.
 

dck4shrt

New Member
by the way, the US produces about 30% of the oil that it consumes. 70% is imported. We'd have to produce about 14 million more bpd than we do now (7 million per day and declining).

The US has 3% of the world's oil but uses 28% of it.

You do the math...
 
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dustin

UAIOE
I just found out Iran has no gasoline refineries. They import their gasoline. Just thought I'd share...
 

dck4shrt

New Member
dustin said:
I just found out Iran has no gasoline refineries. They import their gasoline. Just thought I'd share...

Iran imports some of its gasoline but does refine some as well. They export around 4 million barrels of crude per day, none of which is burned in the US. They import 170k barrels of gasoline per day. They sell it for 40 or 50 cents per gallon.

Another poster might say, well, why should their chest-pounding increase our gas prices if we don't burn any of their oil? I've already answered that though.
 

Railroad

Routinely Derailed
dck4shrt said:
It's all true, just a matter of magnitude and when. Our ability to bounce back will be determined by our preparedness and our ingenuity.

Kudos for your well-informed and researched responses on this topic! Very educational - thanks!
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
9d342e71-dbb8-48c8-a2c4-48824ac880a2...

Toxick said:
Maybe that's why they're switching to nucular energy.

...I thought they said they are going nuclear to kill Jews? All of them.

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".
 
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Bruzilla

Guest
Ok... so I've heard all the miscellaneous and BS excuses for high gasoline prices, mainly:

1. Cost of crude oil
2. Supply
3. Demand

I've also heard that there's nothing that the government can do to lower gasoline prices, and, that oil companies make so little (.09 cents a gallon) of profit that they just can't sell gasoline any cheaper.

My question is that as of today there have been no increases in supply (aside from the SPR purchases which is a drop in the bucket), no decreases in demand, and the price of crude is still hovering at the $72/barrel price mark and the price is expected to stay there or go higher. Yet... since there's been all this attention in the media focused on oil company profits, and talk by the government of "taking action" (whatever action that may be, and however ineffective it may be, to be determined) the price of gasoline has dropped between 8 and 10 cents a gallon down here.

Now how can this be? Supplies haven't increased... demand hasn't decreased... crude hasn't gotten any cheaper... yet the cost of gasoline is going down - as it always seems to do when the heat gets turned up on the oil companies and they start to become at risk of getting stuck with some stupid government tax or other failed action. We saw the same deal last year after Katrina. We had weeks of increasing prices blamed on storm damaged refineries and drilling rigs, yet when the heat got turned up on the oil companies the price of gasoline started going down despite the fact that refineries or oil rigs had been repaired yet.

I'm not a fan of rip-offs like windfall taxes, but I think it's not a coincidence that twice now the mere mention of them has caused the price of gasoline to drop.
 

Pete

Repete
Bruzilla said:
Ok... so I've heard all the miscellaneous and BS excuses for high gasoline prices, mainly:

1. Cost of crude oil
2. Supply
3. Demand

I've also heard that there's nothing that the government can do to lower gasoline prices, and, that oil companies make so little (.09 cents a gallon) of profit that they just can't sell gasoline any cheaper.

My question is that as of today there have been no increases in supply (aside from the SPR purchases which is a drop in the bucket), no decreases in demand, and the price of crude is still hovering at the $72/barrel price mark and the price is expected to stay there or go higher. Yet... since there's been all this attention in the media focused on oil company profits, and talk by the government of "taking action" (whatever action that may be, and however ineffective it may be, to be determined) the price of gasoline has dropped between 8 and 10 cents a gallon down here.

Now how can this be? Supplies haven't increased... demand hasn't decreased... crude hasn't gotten any cheaper... yet the cost of gasoline is going down - as it always seems to do when the heat gets turned up on the oil companies and they start to become at risk of getting stuck with some stupid government tax or other failed action. We saw the same deal last year after Katrina. We had weeks of increasing prices blamed on storm damaged refineries and drilling rigs, yet when the heat got turned up on the oil companies the price of gasoline started going down despite the fact that refineries or oil rigs had been repaired yet.

I'm not a fan of rip-offs like windfall taxes, but I think it's not a coincidence that twice now the mere mention of them has caused the price of gasoline to drop.
emotion
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Hurry!

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html

...it's under $70 right now!

and the price of crude is still hovering at the $72/barrel price mark and the price is expected to stay there or go higher.

You could make a lot of money if you're willing to take small gamble!


I'm not a fan of rip-offs like windfall taxes, but I think it's not a coincidence that twice now the mere mention of them has caused the price of gasoline to drop.

It's not a coincidence. If you ran a business and the government threatened to take your money away because you made more profit than it was felt you should be allowed, you might also try to find a way to avert their intervention.

The threat of government confiscation decreases the value of a given good, service or commodity just like if you were betting on a stock but didn't know how much the government may or may not take from you.

The next question wil be how long this has effect and is this the way to run things?
 

dustin

UAIOE
Larry Gude said:
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html

...it's under $70 right now!



You could make a lot of money if you're willing to take small gamble!




It's not a coincidence. If you ran a business and the government threatened to take your money away because you made more profit than it was felt you should be allowed, you might also try to find a way to avert their intervention.

The threat of government confiscation decreases the value of a given good, service or commodity just like if you were betting on a stock but didn't know how much the government may or may not take from you.

The next question wil be how long this has effect and is this the way to run things?
I'd wait a few more days before buying big oil stock for prices to bottom. Then let em ride... :yay:
 

dck4shrt

New Member
Bruzilla said:
Ok... so I've heard all the miscellaneous and BS excuses for high gasoline prices, mainly:

1. Cost of crude oil
2. Supply
3. Demand

I've also heard that there's nothing that the government can do to lower gasoline prices, and, that oil companies make so little (.09 cents a gallon) of profit that they just can't sell gasoline any cheaper.

My question is that as of today there have been no increases in supply (aside from the SPR purchases which is a drop in the bucket), no decreases in demand, and the price of crude is still hovering at the $72/barrel price mark and the price is expected to stay there or go higher. Yet... since there's been all this attention in the media focused on oil company profits, and talk by the government of "taking action" (whatever action that may be, and however ineffective it may be, to be determined) the price of gasoline has dropped between 8 and 10 cents a gallon down here.

Now how can this be? Supplies haven't increased... demand hasn't decreased... crude hasn't gotten any cheaper... yet the cost of gasoline is going down - as it always seems to do when the heat gets turned up on the oil companies and they start to become at risk of getting stuck with some stupid government tax or other failed action. We saw the same deal last year after Katrina. We had weeks of increasing prices blamed on storm damaged refineries and drilling rigs, yet when the heat got turned up on the oil companies the price of gasoline started going down despite the fact that refineries or oil rigs had been repaired yet.

I'm not a fan of rip-offs like windfall taxes, but I think it's not a coincidence that twice now the mere mention of them has caused the price of gasoline to drop.

This week inventories were higher than expected and refineries were producing at a greater number of bpd than expected because maintenance work was faster than planned, etc. There is a 'glut' of oil on the market right now, as in right this second, and the futures contracts are absorbing that in with lower prices going forward. In other words, there is greater supply on the market than was expected. Commodity markets trade up and down on data like this week in and week out. The MBTE->Ethanol cross-over is passing and the price spike that it caused is flattening out. The long term trend in the oil market remains bullish, very bullish.

By the way, if you don't think that Katrina itself was responsible for short term supply problems (and higher prices) than you need to do some research into the effect that the storm had on actually delivering crude oil and refined product to the marketplace (real supply issues). The price went down because some of the less damaged refineries got back on line and the price spike caused European companies to start shipping refined gasoline across the Atlantic (the price was right). Look up how long it takes for a tanker to go from Rotterdam to New York, and that's about how long it took for prices to ease off after the hurricane.

I'm not arguing that US oil majors make a measly .09 cents per gallon...they can potentially make a whole lot more than that, depending on how many fingers they have in the cookie jar. But, what I will argue as fact, is that US oil companies have zero ability to control (or even affect) oil prices.
 
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Bruzilla

Guest
Hmmm... a quick drive past my benchmark station shows that the price dropped another four cents since yesterday.

Larry, when I checked the Euro markets early this morning oil was at about $72, now it's about $70 as you indicated. But oil dropped to $70 a barrel after Bush announced that we would no longer buy oil for the SPR, and the price of gasoline went up a couple cents during that period. Yet how often are we told that these daily fluctuations don't have an immediate effect on the price of gasoline? I guess that rule only applies when prices are going up, not when they are going down.

As for demand, there have been zero reports of demand drops either in the US or global. If anything the demand has been reported as going up due to our "vacation driving season", which now seems to extend from February to August coming into play. And I hear today that everybody's favorite maniac in Iran is now saying he'll attack oil tankers in the Straits of Hormuz if Iran is attacked, which is nothing but a blatant attempt to effect oil prices... yet they continue to drop.

It sure must be the World's most amazing coincidence that the price of gasoline can go up, and up, and up for months with every manner of validation provided by the oil companies, but once there comes a serious call for action by the people for the government to do something the oil companies somehow find a way to make gasoline cheaper to shut us up. First Katrina, and now again. Yeah... it must just be coincidence... twice.
 
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