pro choice Catholics-what is the point

[libby]

still not listing the doctrines...there is difference between believing only 1 and believing all but 1. if they match up with Catholicism the most, except for that 1 thing, you're trying to kick them out. You're wrong to do that. Plus your church would go down the toilet if it only kept people who followed the way it sounds like you do. It likes the money, so it is very willing to take in whoever wants in.

Okay, for example, it puzzles me why someone would claim Catholicism if they do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. It is not up for discussion. If a person does not believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was Immaculately Conceived and remained a virgin throughout her life. If you do not believe that the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood of Christ, and if you do not believe abortion is murder.
How's that for a start? Accepting the doctrines is not the same as being able to intellectually understand them. Just because all of these things seem ridiculous by today's standards does not mean that they are not true. If someone does not believe these things are true they could easily join another faith tradition that teaches something more acceptable.
Remember, though, I am not suggesting that the Church kick all of these people out. I am asking why these people don't leave on their own. Big difference.

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Okay, for example, it puzzles me why someone would claim Catholicism if they do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. It is not up for discussion. If a person does not believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was Immaculately Conceived and remained a virgin throughout her life. If you do not believe that the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood of Christ, and if you do not believe abortion is murder.

The difference is, all of those EXCEPT the abortion thing are recited in a creed at each mass...you just throw that abortion thing in to fit your agenda

Don't try to BS an ex-practicing Catholic

 

[Beta84]

Okay, for example, it puzzles me why someone would claim Catholicism if they do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. It is not up for discussion. If a person does not believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was Immaculately Conceived and remained a virgin throughout her life. If you do not believe that the Eucharist is the True Body and Blood of Christ, and if you do not believe abortion is murder.
How's that for a start? Accepting the doctrines is not the same as being able to intellectually understand them. Just because all of these things seem ridiculous by today's standards does not mean that they are not true. If someone does not believe these things are true they could easily join another faith tradition that teaches something more acceptable.
Remember, though, I am not suggesting that the Church kick all of these people out. I am asking why these people don't leave on their own. Big difference.

....WHAT?!?!?! First off, the whole Jesus thing is a founding principle of Christianity...so yeah, it would be dumb of them to be Catholic. The body/blood stuff I think is more Catholic but I don't really know...and again, something like that, agreed. But how the holy hell do you throw in ABORTION with those? You're off your damn rocker. That's ludicrous.

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

....WHAT?!?!?! First off, the whole Jesus thing is a founding principle of Christianity...so yeah, it would be dumb of them to be Catholic. The body/blood stuff I think is more Catholic but I don't really know...and again, something like that, agreed. But how the holy hell do you throw in ABORTION with those? You're off your damn rocker. That's ludicrous.

 

[libby]

Where is Mary's Immaculate Conception in the Creed? Where is the True Presence in the creed?

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Where is Mary's Immaculate Conception in the Creed? Where is the True Presence in the creed?

Does "born of the virgin mary" not ring a bell?
I don't even know what true presence is, off hand :shrug:
Oh, apparently it involve the blood and body of Christ...which is in there as well, as far as I recall It's been awhile.

 

[libby]

Does "born of the virgin mary" not ring a bell?
I don't even know what true presence is, off hand :shrug:
Oh, apparently it involve the blood and body of Christ...which is in there as well, as far as I recall It's been awhile.

Her virginity is different from her Immaculate Conception, but they are both doctrines of the church.
I'm leaving for the evening, but if you want a link for some proof, I'll provide.

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Her virginity is different from her Immaculate Conception, but they are both doctrines of the church.
I'm leaving for the evening, but if you want a link for some proof, I'll provide.

Go for it. I was also gone for the evening when you posted that
You're going to have an extremely difficult time convincinge me that abortion can be included with those other things you listed

 

[Beta84]

Her virginity is different from her Immaculate Conception, but they are both doctrines of the church.
I'm leaving for the evening, but if you want a link for some proof, I'll provide.

Say what? If she's the VIRGIN Mary and is having a child, then I'm thinking that goes hand in hand with the whole immaculate conception thing. Last I checked, they didn't have donor sperm back in the Roman Empire. But who knows maybe they did (but wouldn't that just bust a nut on your entire belief system).

Go for it. I was also gone for the evening when you posted that
You're going to have an extremely difficult time convincinge me that abortion can be included with those other things you listed

pcj -- if he convinces you of that, I'm gonna have to disown you!

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

pcj -- if he convinces you of that, I'm gonna have to disown you!

No lie...Originally that post said she COULDN'T convince me it should be included...then I thought to myself, "Now, self, that's very closed-minded of you...at least give the woman a chance."

 

[Radiant1]

Say what? If she's the VIRGIN Mary and is having a child, then I'm thinking that goes hand in hand with the whole immaculate conception thing. Last I checked, they didn't have donor sperm back in the Roman Empire. But who knows maybe they did (but wouldn't that just bust a nut on your entire belief system).

I hate to bust your nuts but FYI: That's not what Immaculate Conception means. You are referring to what is called the Incarnation.

 

[libby]

Go for it. I was also gone for the evening when you posted that
You're going to have an extremely difficult time convincinge me that abortion can be included with those other things you listed

Well, I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything. I posted doctrines of the Church only as a way of pointing out that there are some things one is supposed to accept if they claim to be Catholic.
The Immaculate Conception is not the same as the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, but that will segue off topic, so I won't bother going there.
I do not consider it my job to teach anybody anything.

 

[Beta84]

I hate to bust your nuts but FYI: That's not what Immaculate Conception means. You are referring to what is called the Incarnation.

I don't see a difference :shrug:

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

I hate to bust your nuts but FYI: That's not what Immaculate Conception means. You are referring to what is called the Incarnation.

How is the conception of Jesus, to a virgin, not the Immaculate conception?
I could be wrong, I'm just thinking logically here because I can't remember what I was taught years back

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

Looks like these people forgot abortion, too

The chief teachings of the Catholic church are: God's objective existence; God's interest in individual human beings, who can enter into relations with God (through prayer); the Trinity; the divinity of Jesus; the immortality of the soul of each human being, each one being accountable at death for his or her actions in life, with the award of heaven or hell; the resurrection of the dead; the historicity of the Gospels; and the divine commission of the church. In addition the Roman Catholic Church stresses that since the members, living and dead, share in each other's merits, the Virgin Mary and other saints and the dead in purgatory are never forgotten (see church; saint).

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0860783.html

 

[This_person]

How is the conception of Jesus, to a virgin, not the Immaculate conception?
I could be wrong, I'm just thinking logically here because I can't remember what I was taught years back

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings

 

[theArtistFormerlyKnownAs]

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings

Ah...gotcha.
You're right..and I'd have known that if I'd been to church sometime recently But, alas, I haven't been.

 

[This_person]

The Incarnation

 

[This_person]

The Catholic Church has always condemned abortion as a grave evil. Christian writers from the first-century author of the Didache to Pope John Paul II in his encyclical Evangelium Vitae ("The Gospel of Life") have maintained that the Bible forbids abortion, just as it forbids murder. This tract will provide some examples of this consistent witness from the writings of the Fathers of the Church.

As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:22–24).

 

[Bavarian]

Hey not to jump in, but the Immaculate Conception was not the Virgin Birth. They are actually 2 different things. The Immaculate Conception was Mary being without sin. The Virgin Birth was God getting his Jollies off on a rookie.

Your first point is correct, but the Incarnation is the time when God became Man through the Intercession of the Holy Spirit (Third Person of the Blessed Trinity). The date is March 25, which you will recall is the day when the first Catholic settlers came to Maryland and Father Andrew White Offered the first Mass in the English speaking colonies). You should also remember the day as it is one of the only two days left in the year, the other being Christmas, where you must genuflect during the Creed at the words "And Became Man", formerly you did that every Mass and at the TLM, you still do.

I did not appreciate the language you used referring to to the Incarnation.