Proof you say !

CityGrl

Time for a nap
2ndAmendment said:
There is no proof that will be accepted by a non-believer. People believe what they will. It is far more comforting for a non-believer to believe that there is no God, so they can believe they do not have to answer for their actions. For believers, the proof is everywhere we look.

I don't make excuses for the Bible. I just believe it.

The theme of yesterday's preaching at church was "Be Not Afraid." Peter didn't believe in Jesus when Jesus walked on water. Jesus said "Come," and as long as Peter believed in Jesus and looked him in the eye (was unafraid), he too was able to walk on water. It was when Peter looked away from Jesus and focused on the crashing sea and the blowing wind (afraid), that he fell into the sea. Jesus once again lifted him up and brought him to safety.

If we aren't afraid to believe in things that seem impossible (or out of our grasp of understanding), then we are one with God and are unafraid. I find peace in these words and ideas.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
CityGrl said:
The theme of yesterday's preaching at church was "Be Not Afraid." Peter didn't believe in Jesus when Jesus walked on water. Jesus said "Come," and as long as Peter believed in Jesus and looked him in the eye (was unafraid), he too was able to walk on water. It was when Peter looked away from Jesus and focused on the crashing sea and the blowing wind (afraid), that he fell into the sea. Jesus once again lifted him up and brought him to safety.

If we aren't afraid to believe in things that seem impossible (or out of our grasp of understanding), then we are one with God and are unafraid. I find peace in these words and ideas.
:yay:

Faith, faith, faith.
 

pixiegirl

Cleopatra Jones
You know 2A. I think that Kizzy was trying to validate the bible and defend Christianity here. Should you be splitting hairs with someone who is fighting for the same cause as you are? :confused: So she doesn't see things exactly the way you do. At least she believes.
 
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dems4me

Guest
2ndAmendment said:
I believe in the Bible. The account of creation in the Bible and the Biblical time line says that the age of creation is about 6000 years. Oh oh ... that can't be right! Yes it can. God created the universe mature in every way.

The Big Bang is a theory that really does not hold up with the distribution of matter in the known universe. That is the reason for the search for "dark" matter.

Man looks for ways to either discredit God or impose human limits on God. God is as far beyond our comprehension as we are beyond the comprehension of a paramecium. We can't understand His creation. How can we impose our limits on God? Why Christians would want to impose the limits of our understanding on God or creation is beyond me.


I agree. Doesn't the Bible also say that God is on a different time table than us? Something about his one day for us equals 7000 months or years or something? The world was created in 6 days but to us mere humans that could equal 7000 years or 70000 years ... I think its in one of the NIV's explaining all of this.

As for folks living into their hundres in the Bible, that could also be attributed to a time difference. Not only to a difference in God's time to man's time but also, we just don't know why things were done the way they were done... I look at alot of Old Testament laws (Leviticus) as just that, they were created then and there for that period of time. I sure as heck know there weren't hoards of people on the planet as there were now... maybe that is why folks lived so long... so they can populate the planet quicker and as the planet got more populated the age expectancy grew shorter... just an idea, we are mere humans and don't know the reasons... His ways are greater than are ways, his thoughts greater than our thoughts and his reasonings beyond our mere comprehension.:huggy:
 
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K

Kizzy

Guest
Genesis 6:4 - There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:5 - And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 - And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Genesis 6:7 - And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 6:11 - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Genesis 6:12 - And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Genesis 6:13 - And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


2A,

I understand and respect what you say when you say that you believe the bible. I believe also, and I have faith. The topic here as I understood it was “proof” I just didn’t want to say “believe” because I said so, or believe because the bible says so, I do truly believe in what I have posted.


The quotes above is where I gathered that there was much violence on Earth, before the catastrophe, and I call it a catastrophe because some scientist believe there was a massive freeze and not a flood and others believe there was a flood and that there were glaciers formed in some areas of the Earth. But nobody has ever said some great catastrophe didn’t occur, one thing the Christians and the Scientist can agree on is that a catastrophe occurred. We have pieces of the Ark that was built. Is this not some type of proof? They have found fossilizations (ok ok so scientist cannot agree on exactly how old they are) but they exist and we do have a somewhat ballpark idea on the age. Right? Why did God destroy the Earth as it was known at that point and create the catastrophe? :shrug: It said prior to that in Genesis that God didn't make it rain; that there was a mist type rain (tropical environments produce a mist rain), but God made it rain for 40 days and 40 nights.

I believe it was partly because of the beast and that we couldn't live with the dinosaurs. I think each of us put our on perspective on why we think things are the way they are. We are human and it is natural to want explanation for why things work, why they don't, in life, in our relationships, etc. Just like the question poses here, where is the proof. This is my contribution to what I see as proof.
 
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2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
dems4me said:
As for folks living into their hundres in the Bible, that could also be attributed to a time difference. Not only to a difference in God's time to man's time but also, we just don't know why things were done the way they were done... I look at alot of Old Testament laws (Leviticus) as just that, they were created then and there for that period of time. I sure as heck know there weren't hoards of people on the planet as there were now... maybe that is why folks lived so long... so they can populate the planet quicker and as the planet got more populated the age expectancy grew shorter... just an idea, we are mere humans and don't know the reasons... His ways are greater than are ways, his thoughts greater than our thoughts and his reasonings beyond our mere comprehension.:huggy:
His ways are deffinately far above ours. As to the time difference, I do not know the mind of God. I only have His word, so I believe it. Much simpler that way. The Bible does say that God actually changed mankind's life expectancy.
Genesis 6

<sup id="en-NASB-141">3</sup>Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
Prior to that, mankind lived much longer; man was originally created sinless to live forever. It is because of sin that we suffer death at all.
 

gumbo

FIGHT CLUB !
dems4me said:
I agree. Doesn't the Bible also say that God is on a different time table than us? Something about his one day for us equals 7000 months or years or something? The world was created in 6 days but to us mere humans that could equal 7000 years or 70000 years ... I think its in one of the NIV's explaining all of this.

An interesting theory, But another way of looking at this is.
Are we assuming that all 6 days of creation were in a row ?
Where does Genesis say it took a week.
It says on the first day on the second day and so on.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
gumbo said:
An interesting theory, But another way of looking at this is.
Are we assuming that all 6 days of creation were in a row ?
Where does Genesis say it took a week.
It says on the first day on the second day and so on.
Have your read Genesis 1? Seems pretty clear to me.
Genesis 1

The Creation

<sup id="en-NASB-1">1</sup>In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. <sup id="en-NASB-2">2</sup>The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

<sup id="en-NASB-3">3</sup>Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

<sup id="en-NASB-4">4</sup>God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

<sup id="en-NASB-5">5</sup>God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

<sup id="en-NASB-6">6</sup>Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

<sup id="en-NASB-7">7</sup>God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-8">8</sup>God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

<sup id="en-NASB-9">9</sup>Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-10">10</sup>God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-11">11</sup>Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-12">12</sup>The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-13">13</sup>There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

<sup id="en-NASB-14">14</sup>Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

<sup id="en-NASB-15">15</sup>and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-16">16</sup>God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.

<sup id="en-NASB-17">17</sup>God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,

<sup id="en-NASB-18">18</sup>and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-19">19</sup>There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

<sup id="en-NASB-20">20</sup>Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."

<sup id="en-NASB-21">21</sup>God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-22">22</sup>God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

<sup id="en-NASB-23">23</sup>There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

<sup id="en-NASB-24">24</sup>Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-25">25</sup>God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

<sup id="en-NASB-26">26</sup>Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

<sup id="en-NASB-27">27</sup>God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

<sup id="en-NASB-28">28</sup>God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

<sup id="en-NASB-29">29</sup>Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

<sup id="en-NASB-30">30</sup>and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

<sup id="en-NASB-31">31</sup>God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
The first few passages of Genesis 2 make it pretty clear too.


Genesis 2

The Creation of Man and Woman

<sup id="en-NASB-32">1</sup>Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. <sup id="en-NASB-33">2</sup>By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
 

PJay

Well-Known Member
God created Adam and Eve...okay. Where did all the other people come from?

Finishing: Adam and Eve had children, their children had children....I guess this is why we are all determined to be "brother and sister"? Okay...so why are we all different, skin color etc.?
 
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2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Homesick said:
God created Adam and Eve...okay. Where did all the other people come from?

Finishing: Adam and Eve had children, their children had children....I guess this is why we are all determined to be "brother and sister"? Okay...so why are we all different, skin color etc.?
Genetic variance especially in a limited gene pool. I don't know of a Christian that refutes micro evolution, I certainly don't, just macro evolution. All brothers and sisters in a family do not look a like.
 
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2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Homesick said:
I'm trying, but it's not easy. Thanks.
You are right. Genesis is not easy. It jumps around a bit at times presenting an overview of an event or events and then subsequently explaining the event(s) further. If you don't pay close attention, the time line gets confusing.
 
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dems4me

Guest
2ndAmendment said:
You are right. Genesis is not easy. It jumps around a bit at times presenting an overview of an event or events and then subsequently explaining the event(s) further. If you don't pay close attention, the time line gets confusing.


If you think that's confusing try to follow Chronicles1 and 2... :lol: :crazy: I can't remember alot about who begot who, but it does stand firm with Jewish history and culture of being excellent bookkeepers and name keepers, records, etc... :smile:
 

Dondi

Dondi
Back to the original question. While we debate science and religion, the true test of God is in our hearts, in our life, the relationships we from which we share God's love that we ourselves have found. Prayers have been answered, relationships strengthened, and our purpose becomes more and more clear as we demonstrate the Golden Rule that Jesus commanded us. These commands, while to be obeyed, guides our behavior until we see the love, peace, and joy Jesus promised put into action and experienced. When we learn to love God and learn to love others, God's love through His Spirit in our lives is manifested. And that's proof enough for me.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
aps45819 said:
Consider water. All other substances become denser as they go from gas, to liquid to solid. If water did this ice would sink and kill all freshwater life in the winter. The ice caps would sink, refreeze, sink untill the oceans were frozen solid. This exception to the rules allow life to exist.
You can't be serious. Ice caps and density of ice have nothing to do with whether or not the oceans would be frozen solid. Ice becomes water when there's sufficient heat for the transformation. Your glass of water doesn't freeze when you fill it up with ice, especially on a warm day. It's simply a matter of heat.

So the world MIGHT be covered with water (which, by the way, it wouldn't). Most of the world's animal biomass is aquatic (no surprise). Lots of life there.

And SmallTown touches on a good point - you can't point to something after the fact and claim things like that. It's like claiming "if it hadn't been for xxxx, this never would have happened". Most times, you don't know that. You don't know that life couldn't exist without water. If you believe in a God to begin with, you ought to believe HE doesn't NEED water to make life - unless he's not omnipotent.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
2ndAmendment said:
Genetic variance especially in a limited gene pool. I don't know of a Christian that refutes micro evolution, I certainly don't, just macro evolution. All brothers and sisters in a family do not look a like.
And yet, Luke 3 claims a mere eleven generations from Noah, to Abraham.

Are we to assume in such a short time, all the world's races appeared?
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
SamSpade said:
And yet, Luke 3 claims a mere eleven generations from Noah, to Abraham.

Are we to assume in such a short time, all the world's races appeared?
I've heard a few fundamentalists call Caucasians the Tribe of Shem, Africans the Tribe of Ham, and Orientals the Tribe of Japeth. It sounded to me like Noah's three sons looked like the kids from the crappy Captain Planet cartoon.
 
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