Proof you say !

[2ndAmendment]

And this is different from people who follow the bible?

Those that believe the Bible are not trying to prove it. We accept it on faith. I don't have a need to prove it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... I personally think that all you people that rely so heavily on faith are going to be disappointed. Actually you won't feel disappointment because when it's over, it's over so lighten up and enjoy it now.

Well the other side of the coin is you and many disregard God and have no faith in Him. As you say, if I am wrong, it is over. Oh well. No loss. If you are wrong you have lost everything.

I don't believe because of this, but you brought the proposition up.

 

[2ndAmendment]

However, the reverse is also true; when believers find themselves in the Kingdom of Heaven, they will know that all they believed in was in fact correct, as prophesied.

True, not all believers will make it through those "pearly gates".

There's still a Man up there, empowered to make that decision, it's His and noone else's; He alone has that power to discern.

I said earlier in this thread - that I'd realised that to tell an individual, that if he/she did not believe in The Christ, he or she was going to the underworld - that was not the way to go about trying to win them over and persuade.

I learned you "turn off" more people than you win over, by that kind of rhetoric, so I only expressed that thought when asked: "What are the consequences?"

But, within 45 seconds of physically/mentally expiring, I've been told, you'll know darn well which way you're heading.

The choice, as I've also said - is yours. What will you do with it?

I agree with everything except 'True, not all believers will make it through those "pearly gates". '. That goes against

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I do know that there is a difference between believing with your "head" and your heart. Believers are told to have the faith of a little child. That is the faith of a child before they learn to say "no" or "why".

 

[willie]

Well the other side of the coin is you and many disregard God and have no faith in Him. As you say, if I am wrong, it is over. Oh well. No loss. If you are wrong you have lost everything.

I don't believe because of this, but you brought the proposition up.

you and many disregard God and have no faith in Him.

That is not true and I did not come even close to saying that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndAmendment
The problem I have with the later method is when you start with a preconceived idea of what you think is right, you will tend to bias your observations in that direction

That is a good description of blind faith.

 

[Railroad]

Why argue about all this stuff? God will sort it all out in the end anyway, no matter what any of us think. When the Rapture comes, the argument will suddenly become distinctly one-sided anyway. There's only one qualified Arbiter of Truth, and none of us is Him. And I choose to follow Him - a happy "lemming" all the way!

One of my cars is a very unusual color. Depending on where you stand, it's either dark green or dark blue. One person chooses one color, another chooses the other. One is wrong and the other is right, but the only person who really knows is the fellow who created the color in the first place. Coming up with a convincing argument either way doesn't change the paint job.

Ezek 12:1-2
1Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying:2 "Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, which has eyes to see but does not see, and ears to hear but does not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

Mark 4:9-12
9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.'"
NKJV

 

[willie]

We argue about "This stuff" because you keep bringing it up and say something like "When the Rapture comes, the argument will suddenly become distinctly one-sided anyway." Like you know something the rest of us Hell bent heathens don't know. I do believe that you and 2A are two very good hearted people inside but speaking only for me, you come across as looking down on anyone not sharing your beliefs.

quote:
One of my cars is a very unusual color. Depending on where you stand, it's either dark green or dark blue. One person chooses one color, another chooses the other. One is wrong and the other is right,

Black and white thinking. That is most likely ChromaLusion® paint and no one is wrong or right unless, of course, you neglect to investigate how this illusion was created. Does the guy observing the car from one angle have a right to call the other guy wrong? It sounds presumptuous at best.

 

[Dondi]

We argue about "This stuff" because you keep bringing it up and say something like "When the Rapture comes, the argument will suddenly become distinctly one-sided anyway." Like you know something the rest of us Hell bent heathens don't know. I do believe that you and 2A are two very good hearted people inside but speaking only for me, you come across as looking down on anyone not sharing your beliefs.

quote:
One of my cars is a very unusual color. Depending on where you stand, it's either dark green or dark blue. One person chooses one color, another chooses the other. One is wrong and the other is right,

Black and white thinking. That is most likely ChromaLusion® paint and no one is wrong or right unless, of course, you neglect to investigate how this illusion was created. Does the guy observing the car from one angle have a right to call the other guy wrong? It sounds presumptuous at best.

If a person is viewing the car on one side and sees dark green and the other person on the other side sees dark blue, then they are both right because the angle and refraction of light on the vehicles will determine the color. The sky is blue for this very reason. Simple physics.

 

[gumbo]

We argue about "This stuff" because you keep bringing it up and say something like "When the Rapture comes, the argument will suddenly become distinctly one-sided anyway." Like you know something the rest of us Hell bent heathens don't know. I do believe that you and 2A are two very good hearted people inside but speaking only for me, you come across as looking down on anyone not sharing your beliefs.

quote:
One of my cars is a very unusual color. Depending on where you stand, it's either dark green or dark blue. One person chooses one color, another chooses the other. One is wrong and the other is right,

Black and white thinking. That is most likely ChromaLusion® paint and no one is wrong or right unless, of course, you neglect to investigate how this illusion was created. Does the guy observing the car from one angle have a right to call the other guy wrong? It sounds presumptuous at best.

Good post. Personally I thought it was a debate not an argument.
In arguments no one wins or learns anything , a debate can be educational and entertaining not to say arguments can't be entertaining in a funny way

I have to say I have learned a lot from reading the personal views of others, and to say the least I have been reminded just how different we all see things.
So I feel debates are healthy and productive. I have never heard of, or known a Catholic to speak in tongues.

Learning does the mind good!

 

[Railroad]

We argue about "This stuff" because you keep bringing it up and say something like "When the Rapture comes, the argument will suddenly become distinctly one-sided anyway." Like you know something the rest of us Hell bent heathens don't know. I do believe that you and 2A are two very good hearted people inside but speaking only for me, you come across as looking down on anyone not sharing your beliefs.

quote:
One of my cars is a very unusual color. Depending on where you stand, it's either dark green or dark blue. One person chooses one color, another chooses the other. One is wrong and the other is right,

Black and white thinking. That is most likely ChromaLusion® paint and no one is wrong or right unless, of course, you neglect to investigate how this illusion was created. Does the guy observing the car from one angle have a right to call the other guy wrong? It sounds presumptuous at best.

Just to be sure, I just checked - Gumbo brought it up this time, and others besides 2A have brought it up before. You might notice that I in particular don't "keep bringing it up."

If you feel uncomfortable or angry at me or 2A when this discussion comes up (and comes up, and comes up, and comes up, and comes up, over and over and over again as if a hundred times wasn't enough), remember that most of the time people are asking us for honest opinion, not a sugar-coated or false reply.

Simply put, we believe there's only one right answer to the question of right vs. wrong, faith vs. non-faith, Christ vs. Muhammed, etc. It's the same answer every time, and we all know that by now. To us it's fact, not a belief or good advice or even a nice story - it's fact. To you it isn't. You've made that clear. You refuse to see it any other way, and we refuse to see it any other way. It would be different if there were new people asking these questions every time, from a position of genuine ignorance, but that simply is ont the case. So why plow the same field over and over again?

As for the paint, picking a nit doesn't change the simile. You're not so stupid that you don't understand that.

 

[Tonio]

I do believe that you and 2A are two very good hearted people inside but speaking only for me, you come across as looking down on anyone not sharing your beliefs...Does the guy observing the car from one angle have a right to call the other guy wrong? It sounds presumptuous at best.

I agree. Why do one person's religious beliefs have to apply to other people at all?

I like your analogy of the ChromaLusion car color. I'll extend it and ask, why SHOULD people agree on what color the car is? Different people are going to have different experiences of viewing the color. Why would anyone care if someone else sees a different color?

 

[Penn]

I agree. Why do one person's religious beliefs have to apply to other people at all?

I like your analogy of the ChromaLusion car color. I'll extend it and ask, why SHOULD people agree on what color the car is? Different people are going to have different experiences of viewing the color. Why would anyone care if someone else sees a different color?

The short answer to your questions, as I see it, is this:

No one comes to the Father except by Jesus.

If one considers him or herself a Christian, this is fundamental; this is like learning in your ABCs. There are no shade differences in color here - either you believe it, accept it as faith or you don't.

I'm going to refrain from quoting scripture here, but essentially, one day Jesus was answering some queries from His disciples, namely Phillip. Phillip said to Jesus, "Show us the Father, and we will be happy little campers."

OK, this is John 14:8. He's basically telling them "Look, if you've seen me, than you've seen the Father! Don't you guys get it yet? He sent me here to do a job, and you're going to find out what that entails fairly quick, I suspect.

"In a little while I'm going to leave you, ie., I don't have much more time to talk to you, as "the prince of this world approaches." He doesn't have any power over me, but I have to do what my Father requires me to do. By My deed(s) you'll have proof that I love my Father."

Sorry, you really can't get to the point if you don't quote from the Bible a little. Really, it's a paraphrase

Heck, please read all of John 14 from a Bible that leaves out the shalts, the shews, and dost thou be worthy-type sayings - like in The New Living Translation, if you can.

He lets it all hang out, talking about His mission, Himself, His Father, and how it's all going to eventually go down.

Powerful stuff.

 

[Tonio]

If you feel uncomfortable or angry at me or 2A when this discussion comes up (and comes up, and comes up, and comes up, and comes up, over and over and over again as if a hundred times wasn't enough), remember that most of the time people are asking us for honest opinion, not a sugar-coated or false reply.

The topic keeps coming up over and over because it sounds like you and 2A think you know what's good for other people, even if that isn't your intention. A person's religious beliefs are no one else's business, both in the responsibility sense and in the privacy sense. The rest of us are not accountable to you for what we believe.

 

[gumbo]

The short answer to your questions, as I see it, is this:
No one comes to the Father except by Jesus.

If Jesus and God are the same what difference does it make ?
This is a pompous Christan religion belief. Those who have never heard of Jesus and never sinned are thrown into the lake of fire. Does anyone not see how self righteous this sounds?
Then what would be the point of judgment day ?

[QUOTE[If one considers him or herself a Christian, this is fundamental; this is like learning in your ABCs. There are no shade differences in color here - either you believe it, accept it as faith or you don't.

This is not true either. Some Christan's believe you need to jump into a bag of snakes. Some make idols ! Some believe women should be silent , some believe if you don't at lest speak in tongues, you haven't been saved. Some believe you can commit crimes against man and nature ,then confess to some guy in a makeshift outhouse and all is forgiven.
Many Many shades ! Christians have even been know to wage war against one another because of different fundamental beliefs.

I am a Christan ! I just have my own personal religion. The way it should be.
And this comes from the teaching of MASS, A very well known organization with billions of members.



Mothers Against Stupid Sheot
Quote... If everyone else jumped off of a cliff would you do it too !

 

[Penn]

The short answer to your questions, as I see it, is this:
No one comes to the Father except by Jesus.

If Jesus and God are the same what difference does it make ?
This is a pompous Christan religion belief. Those who have never heard of Jesus and never sinned are thrown into the lake of fire. Does anyone not see how self righteous this sounds?
Then what would be the point of judgment day ?

[QUOTE[If one considers him or herself a Christian, this is fundamental; this is like learning in your ABCs. There are no shade differences in color here - either you believe it, accept it as faith or you don't.

This is not true either. Some Christan's believe you need to jump into a bag of snakes. Some make idols ! Some believe women should be silent , some believe if you don't at lest speak in tongues, you haven't been saved. Some believe you can commit crimes against man and nature ,then confess to some guy in a makeshift outhouse and all is forgiven.
Many Many shades ! Christians have even been know to wage war against one another because of different fundamental beliefs.

I am a Christan ! I just have my own personal religion. The way it should be.
And this comes from the teaching of MASS, A very well known organization with billions of members.



Mothers Against Stupid Sheot
Quote... If everyone else jumped off of a cliff would you do it too !

First, again as I perceive it, Jesus is The Word - and there may be something more to this phrase as I know it, but as He's part of the Trinity, so is He also the direct pipeline to the Father. Yes, they are all 3 the same individual, but separate entities in one person. I can't even begin to explain why/how I know this is true, anymore than I can explain it in a devine sense. I don't think you can equate dieties to humans in this sense, is what I'm crudely trying to say.

You get one human being claiming to be 3 persons, and you'd(possibly) consider the fact that you have someone certifiable on your hands.

However, with the Trinity, I think each of the three were meant to play significant roles in Biblical history, right from the Beginning. They "led the way" in the ancient times of man; each was a leader, a teacher, a mentor, and a guide.

Why were all 3 there together, in the beginning? I think it was because of the fact that God knew what those leading roles would be, and who or what would be required, to show the way. Just as He knows what you're going to say - while you're still thinking about it - He knew which events were going to play out in the future. So, each of the 3 would have their time as well.

Can I prove that? Heck no; it's what I've come to settle on. If anybody has a better idea, come on out with it. I'm open to any reasonable thought.

I said - from a quote in the Bible, that No man comes to the Father, except through Jesus. I think that is as basic as your ABCs, as I understand it. He is the One who holds the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. If His Father told Him to state that fact, which I believe to be true, then He was fulfulling the wishes of His Father, ie. "through My Son will you find your path to Me".

The examples of which you quote - are they aberrations, extreme examples of what man is capable of doing? Loonies out there on the fringes, maybe?

Again, I think we have man coming up with extreme measures/beliefs - thinking they are properly leading their flock.

You'd never catch me going to a church that used rattlesnakes as part of the service! Neither would I go to a worship service that preached "fire and brimstone" each and every Sunday morning! I think of myself as a mainstream Methodist, and have been that way since I was 10 or 12 years old.

Hey Gumbo! When's the last time you went to a church where rattlesnakes were present, and part of the service?

Where in the Bible does it say you have to speak in tongues, in order to be saved? I don't buy that one, from someone telling me that. You'd better have a good reference from the Bible before I'd give that any creedence.

 

[Railroad]

The topic keeps coming up over and over because it sounds like you and 2A think you know what's good for other people, even if that isn't your intention. A person's religious beliefs are no one else's business, both in the responsibility sense and in the privacy sense. The rest of us are not accountable to you for what we believe.

I can see why you would feel that way about me and 2A. As for the rest of your post, I agree 100%!!! And a lot of people prefer to keep their beliefs to themselves, and a lot more people will simply not read religious things that would otherwise get their dander up.

 

[2ndAmendment]

you and many disregard God and have no faith in Him.

That is not true and I did not come even close to saying that.

If I misconstrued your post, forgive me.

The problem I have with the later method is when you start with a preconceived idea of what you think is right, you will tend to bias your observations in that direction

That is a good description of blind faith.

And that is the kind of faith Jesus said we must have; faith without doubt.

Matthew 21:20-22

<sup id="en-NASB-23847">20</sup>Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?" <sup id="en-NASB-23848">21</sup>And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

<sup id="en-NASB-23849">22</sup>"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

 

[2ndAmendment]

The topic keeps coming up over and over because it sounds like you and 2A think you know what's good for other people, even if that isn't your intention. A person's religious beliefs are no one else's business, both in the responsibility sense and in the privacy sense. The rest of us are not accountable to you for what we believe.

This is the Religion Forum; hence, there are religious topics. If you don't want to discuss your personal religious beliefs, then I suggest you not post in this forum. If you are offended by the posts of those that do post, then I suggest you not read this forum. Simple

Some come here and post questions and some post their opinion as gumbo did when starting this thread. I try to post scripture. It is not my opinion, it is scripture from the Bible. You either do or don't believe it. I don't look down on those that don't agree with me; I have compassion for them and pray for them. I try to explain why I believe. If you feel I look down on you, then look to yourself for why you have that feeling.

I hope I am not religious. I hope that I live my belief and follow God's word. Religion is man's way not God's. Religion is man trying to stuff God through the funnel of human wisdom and understanding rather than letting God be the God He is.

I may be smart enough to understand computer logic and write programs, understand RF and test, analyze, and design radio systems. I just recognize that I am not smart enough to analyze or understand God beyond what He reveals, so in my "worldly stupidity" I just accept God's word.

 

[2ndAmendment]

If Jesus and God are the same what difference does it make ? This is a pompous Christan religion belief. Those who have never heard of Jesus and never sinned are thrown into the lake of fire. Does anyone not see how self righteous this sounds?
Then what would be the point of judgment day ?

I thought you said you knew the Bible? Maybe I misunderstood. The difference it makes is that it is the prescribe way God has told humans to get into His kingdom. According to the Bible, all have sinned, so the point is moot. Also according to the Bible, those who have never heard are judged according to their actions. Of course you have heard, so this does not apply to you.

This is not true either. Some Christan's believe you need to jump into a bag of snakes. Some make idols ! Some believe women should be silent , some believe if you don't at lest speak in tongues, you haven't been saved. Some believe you can commit crimes against man and nature ,then confess to some guy in a makeshift outhouse and all is forgiven.
Many Many shades ! Christians have even been know to wage war against one another because of different fundamental beliefs.

I am a Christan ! I just have my own personal religion. The way it should be.
And this comes from the teaching of MASS, A very well known organization with billions of members.

You are right. Some people who are religious get it wrong because they choose to seize on a verse out of context or ignore a verse and whole groups of people follow, because they do not read the Bible for themselves. Catholics do indeed make idols and bow down before them and pray to them.
Having your own personal religion is just that, religion. I have a personal relationship with Jesus and that is what God says we should have; we are to know Him and be known by Him. Actually according to the Catholic Almanac just a little over a billion world wide, so it is not billions.

Mothers Against Stupid Sheot
Quote... If everyone else jumped off of a cliff would you do it too !

Not if everyone did just like those that choose not to believe the Bible is the word of God, but if Jesus told me to, I guess that is where faith comes in.

 

[Tonio]

This is the Religion Forum; hence, there are religious topics. If you don't want to discuss your personal religious beliefs, then I suggest you not post in this forum. If you are offended by the posts of those that do post, then I suggest you not read this forum.

Offended? I hope I'm not coming across as that small-minded. I post my own religious beliefs here because I like discussing them. My beliefs (hopefully) shouldn't affect other people because they're not about other people. I have no right to have a religious belief about what happens to other people when they die. If I were to have that type of belief, I would be defining and negating other people. What's worse is if I told others that they're going to be destroyed in hell. I see that as a gross violation of personal boundaries.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Offended? I hope I'm not coming across as that small-minded. I post my own religious beliefs here because I like discussing them. My beliefs (hopefully) shouldn't affect other people because they're not about other people. I have no right to have a religious belief about what happens to other people when they die. If I were to have that type of belief, I would be defining and negating other people. What's worse is if I told others that they're going to be destroyed in hell. I see that as a gross violation of personal boundaries.

I see it as a gross neglect of love for Jesus and others to not obey the great commission.

Matthew 28:18-20

<sup id="en-NASB-24214">18</sup>And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

<sup id="en-NASB-24215">19</sup>"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

<sup id="en-NASB-24216">20</sup>teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

To me, you come across as the psycho-babel "I'm OK. You're OK" stuff.