Proof you say !

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Penn said:
It's only in the Prologue of the Gospel of John, where He is said to have existed - "in the beginning", ie.,
It's lots of places. Two others immediately spring to mind:

John 17:4-5

<SUP>4</SUP>I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. <SUP id=en-NIV-26754>5</SUP>And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Colossians 1:15-19

<SUP>15</SUP>He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. <SUP id=en-NIV-29466>16</SUP>For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. <SUP id=en-NIV-29467>17</SUP>He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. <SUP id=en-NIV-29468>18</SUP>And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. <SUP id=en-NIV-29469>19</SUP>For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, <SUP id=en-NIV-29470>20</SUP>and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

There are several other references suggesting Jesus as existing prior to his incarnation in Bethlehem - the one that comes most quickly to mind is:

John 8:56-58

<SUP>56</SUP>Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." <SUP id=en-NIV-26428>57</SUP>"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
<SUP id=en-NIV-26429>58</SUP>"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Jesus, of course, using I AM - the self-descriptive defining name of God - rather than "I was", declaring himself to be God.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
Thanks Sam , for the other references. Like I said before, there are many more folks here with more knowledge than I have.

I went into Genesis, expecting to see the Trinity introduced, among the passages, and was surprized when it was not.

As I mused earlier, all Three would rule over events throughout the Old and New Testaments, each with a different message, or Covenant between man and deity. Indeed, there was a different set required for each of the ages, it appears.

The Holy Spirit would seem to be the instrument that was(still is) empowered with God's will, carried out His tasks, in both Testaments, as well as acting as counsel and comfort to many.
 

Dondi

Dondi
Penn said:
What I'm trying to point out is that there are 2 parts to the Trinity confirmed in Genesis.

The 3rd - Jesus Christ, known as The Word, is not.

Why the discrepancy?

The Gospels tell us that Jesus was in fact there at the beginning, and I believe that to be true.

Me? I'm looking for answers.


I have an OT reference where there seems to be three refernces to God in one verse:

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

For more confirmation of Jesus' pre-existance:

Rev 22:6,7

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Cross reference to Rev. 1:8,11 and John 4:10-14)

7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
I think the author of this article is full of crap:

http://fray.slate.msn.com/id/2124297/?nav=ais

The author may have a point when he said that evolution "surely does undercut the basic teachings and doctrines of the world's great religions." But Weisberg doesn't seem to understand that doctrine and dogma don't define religion. That's like saying that "Moby Dick" is a story about a big whale.

Faith is about belief in things that can't be perceived or measured or quantified. It's an inherently personal experience that has nothing to do with doctrine, which is more about institutions and less about believers. Of course evolution "provides a better answer to the question of how we got here than religion does." But faith isn't about "how we got here." Faith is about "why we got here." That's a question that can never be answered scientifically, and that's the way it should be.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
gumbo said:
So I suppose women are not allowed to speak in your church ?
Or is this a part of the NT you choose to ignore ?
So if you take every word literally, why not this part too ?

Point being, everything written in the bible has an intention, what that intention is , sometimes can be interpreted differently depending on how one looks at it.
Different Christan religions interpret the Scripture differently.
Speak tongues in a Catholic church and see what happens.
I recieved the gift of tongues at a non-denominational prayer meeting sponsored by the Catholic brothers at Ryken High School. Most of the group spoke in tongues including the Catholic priests and brothers.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Penn said:
Thanks Sam , for the other references. Like I said before, there are many more folks here with more knowledge than I have.

I went into Genesis, expecting to see the Trinity introduced, among the passages, and was surprized when it was not.

As I mused earlier, all Three would rule over events throughout the Old and New Testaments, each with a different message, or Covenant between man and deity. Indeed, there was a different set required for each of the ages, it appears.

The Holy Spirit would seem to be the instrument that was(still is) empowered with God's will, carried out His tasks, in both Testaments, as well as acting as counsel and comfort to many.
You won't find reference to the word trinity anywhere in the Bible. There is evidence that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirits in Revelation.
Revelation 1:4

<sup id="en-NASB-30703">4</sup>John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
We understand very little about our Creator.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
SamSpade said:
It's lots of places. Two others immediately spring to mind:

John 17:4-5

<sup>4</sup>I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. <sup id="en-NIV-26754">5</sup>And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Colossians 1:15-19

<sup>15</sup>He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. <sup id="en-NIV-29466">16</sup>For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. <sup id="en-NIV-29467">17</sup>He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. <sup id="en-NIV-29468">18</sup>And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. <sup id="en-NIV-29469">19</sup>For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, <sup id="en-NIV-29470">20</sup>and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

There are several other references suggesting Jesus as existing prior to his incarnation in Bethlehem - the one that comes most quickly to mind is:

John 8:56-58

<sup>56</sup>Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." <sup id="en-NIV-26428">57</sup>"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
<sup id="en-NIV-26429">58</sup>"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Jesus, of course, using I AM - the self-descriptive defining name of God - rather than "I was", declaring himself to be God.
Good stuff! :yay:
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
Faith is about belief in things that can't be perceived or measured or quantified.
Absolutely true.
Tonio said:
It's an inherently personal experience that has nothing to do with doctrine, which is more about institutions and less about believers.
Man creates religion. That is why as Christians mature in faith, it is more about Jesus and less about church. You can go to church every day of your life and not be a Christian. Christianity is a way of life. I have heard it expressed this way and I agree. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God's way of reaching man.
Tonio said:
Of course evolution "provides a better answer to the question of how we got here than religion does."
I don't think it does. I think believing in evolution takes more faith than believing in God.
 

Dondi

Dondi
Tonio said:
I think the author of this article is full of crap:

http://fray.slate.msn.com/id/2124297/?nav=ais

The author may have a point when he said that evolution "surely does undercut the basic teachings and doctrines of the world's great religions." But Weisberg doesn't seem to understand that doctrine and dogma don't define religion. That's like saying that "Moby Dick" is a story about a big whale.

Faith is about belief in things that can't be perceived or measured or quantified. It's an inherently personal experience that has nothing to do with doctrine, which is more about institutions and less about believers. Of course evolution "provides a better answer to the question of how we got here than religion does." But faith isn't about "how we got here." Faith is about "why we got here." That's a question that can never be answered scientifically, and that's the way it should be.

The fundamental problem in the idea of teaching intelligent design alongside, not in place of, evolution is that the proponents of evolution do not wish to give any leeway to the possibility of alternate explanations, particularly when, in their view, intelligent design is unscientific, i.e. it cannot be proven that some force outside of the natural causes had an influence in the development of the species. What intelligent design proponents would agrue is tha the evolutionary model has some serious gaps and flaws that need to be address (i.e, gaps in the fossil record for transistional fossils, the lack of evidence of macroevolution evolution taking place in the modern era, the failure to reproduce the spark of life in controlled laboratory conditions which is problematic to the historic pre-biotic conditions in which life supposedly began, the complexity of life and DNA, etc). Until there are satisfactory explanations that would conform to the evolution model, then there should be room for alternate models.

I do have a question about evolutionary science. In order for a theory to be valid, it should be tested. But evolution is based on historical evidence, is it not? Therefore how do you apply the scientific method to history? Except for microevolution, which occurs within the species, there has been no success in producing one species from another species. i.e. macroevolution.
 

Railroad

Routinely Derailed
Dondi said:
I do have a question about evolutionary science. In order for a theory to be valid, it should be tested. But evolution is based on historical evidence, is it not? Therefore how do you apply the scientific method to history? Except for microevolution, which occurs within the species, there has been no success in producing one species from another species. i.e. macroevolution.
I don't know about evolutionary science, but I was taught that the scientific method consists of observing, then developing a question based on the observation, and then investigating (and observing) and experimenting (and observing) before developing a theory. At least in the field of modern physics, this process has been inverted, so that the idea precedes the observation.

An example of the former method is when two scientists at Bell labs discovered the universal background microwave radiation. An example of the latter method is string theory.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Dondi said:
I do have a question about evolutionary science. In order for a theory to be valid, it should be tested. But evolution is based on historical evidence, is it not? Therefore how do you apply the scientific method to history? Except for microevolution, which occurs within the species, there has been no success in producing one species from another species. i.e. macroevolution.
Only religious types make this division, as though it exists.

It's fairly simple, actually.

Tell me, when someone postulates that there is a tenth planet, how do you find it? Space is a big place. Simple. You observe perturbations in orbits of existing bodies, come up with a hypothesis, and point your telescope where the hypothetical body *should* be - and voila! The planet appears.

Same with the fossil record. You postulate where in the fossil record something should occur, and you find it there. That's good science - being able to project what WILL occur by extrapolating from existing knowledge. It really doesn't matter that you're talking about a timeline that rests entirely in the past. It works exactly the same way.

And it works in exactly the same way that "creation science" doesn't. You can't "test" it, because it doesn't work that way; you can't try to PROVE it wrong, because it's "right" by definition.
 

tirdun

staring into the abyss
The fundamental problem in the idea of teaching intelligent design alongside, not in place of, evolution is that the proponents of evolution do not wish to give any leeway to the possibility of alternate explanations
The fundamental problem with teaching any part intelligent design is that there simply is nothing to teach. It is not an alternative, it is simply anti-evolution. It has no scientific principles, it has no tenets, rules or laws to understand and there is no evidence in any physical science that it describes any real process. To teach that "something unknowable" happened at some point in the process is to revert to magic thinking. There is nothing scientific about "We don't know and therefore we cannot know".
What intelligent design proponents would agrue is tha the evolutionary model has some serious gaps and flaws that need to be address
As do all current theories of gravity. As do all current germ theories. As do all current techtonic theories. This is the very definition of SCIENCE.
i.e, gaps in the fossil record for transistional fossils
Pakicetus inachus -> Ambulocetus natans -> Indocetus ramani -> Dorudon -> Basilosaurus -> Modern Whales.

This is the transitional family from a land creature that looked like a wolf to a whale. Pakicetus was a preditory land animal. Basilosaurus was a whale-like animal with legs. This is one of the most complete fossil records thus discovered.

Go here for horse evolution from Hyracotherium (an animal the size of a dog) to a modern horse: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/fhc.htm

Bird to Dino possible transitions (not linear):
Archaeopteryx, ornithomimosaurs, therizinosaurs, and oviraptorosaurs

the lack of evidence of macroevolution evolution taking place in the modern era
Which is when? The 3000 years since Noah? The last 2My? Note that the words "macroevolution" and "microevolution" are nonsensical. There is no stopping mechanism that prevents tiny steps from accumulating into large steps. First you complain about no transitionals, then you limit them to the "modern era".
the failure to reproduce the spark of life in controlled laboratory conditions which is problematic to the historic pre-biotic conditions in which life supposedly began
So because science has not created the difficult-to-fully-document conditions of a billion years ago on a scale of our planet, they've failed?
the complexity of life and DNA, etc). Until there are satisfactory explanations that would conform to the evolution model, then there should be room for alternate models.
All sorts of things are complex. That doesn't make them "designed". Lots of things aren't complex and are. If I find a brick in a pile of rocks, I'd assume the brick (simple and linear) was designed while the rocks (complex) are not. I'd also know that some rocks form right angles due to crystillization types, especially in crystals and carbon. None of this means I need to invent elves to carve square rocks out of round ones.
I do have a question about evolutionary science. In order for a theory to be valid, it should be tested. But evolution is based on historical evidence, is it not?
Modern experiments using bacteria, insects and plants. Modern medicine = evolution.
Therefore how do you apply the scientific method to history?
You establish theories based on the evidence in one line and see if it applies to others.
Except for microevolution, which occurs within the species, there has been no success in producing one species from another species. i.e. macroevolution.
Some other alternate theories that you could teach in school:

Palmistry instead of Examination Medicine
Astology instead of Astronomy
Humour Medicine instead of Germ Theory
Homeopathy instead of Chemistry
Lamarkism instead of Evolution
Flat-Earth theory instead of Plate Techtonics
Earth Expansion theory instead of Plate Techtonics
Raelean alien seeding versus Evolution
Velikovskian Catastrophism versus Astronomy
Statism instead of... well anything. Statisim argues that nothing ever changes.
Possession instead of Psychology
Scientology instead of Medicine, Psychology and Astronomy

And more. Pick your alternative.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Railroad said:
I don't know about evolutionary science, but I was taught that the scientific method consists of observing, then developing a question based on the observation, and then investigating (and observing) and experimenting (and observing) before developing a theory. At least in the field of modern physics, this process has been inverted, so that the idea precedes the observation.

An example of the former method is when two scientists at Bell labs discovered the universal background microwave radiation. An example of the latter method is string theory.
The problem I have with the later method is when you start with a preconceived idea of what you think is right, you will tend to bias your observations in that direction. Obviously when you are doing research for your doctorate, you don't want to prove yourself wrong.
 

Railroad

Routinely Derailed
2ndAmendment said:
The problem I have with the later method is when you start with a preconceived idea of what you think is right, you will tend to bias your observations in that direction. Obviously when you are doing research for your doctorate, you don't want to prove yourself wrong.
Precisely!! Hence the debates in progress. One should not be shaping observations to fit theories.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Railroad said:
Precisely!! Hence the debates in progress. One should not be shaping observations to fit theories.
UNFORTUNATELY - sometimes in physics, it's a lot like CSI - you already HAVE a puzzle - such as, where's all the universe matter, or how come the sun ain't got no neutrinos - and you have to SOLVE the mystery. As in the case I brought up earlier, they've been speculating about a large tenth planet for years, and they think they found it - because you can't FIRST find the needle in the haystack and THEN determine if it's what pinched you in the butt. You have to work backwards, because the observation just isn't going to pop out at you.

The kind of investigation they do on CSI *is* science by observation (if you discount the fact that a lot of it is purely fiction). They rarely reach a conclusion without evidence to support it, although personal bias DOES send them down blind alleys very often.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
2ndAmendment said:
The problem I have with the later method is when you start with a preconceived idea of what you think is right, you will tend to bias your observations in that direction.
That's exactly the problem I see with intelligent design.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
2ndAmendment said:
The problem I have with the later method is when you start with a preconceived idea of what you think is right, you will tend to bias your observations in that direction.
And this is different from people who follow the bible?
 

willie

Well-Known Member
Railroad said:
Precisely!! Hence the debates in progress. One should not be shaping observations to fit theories.
You are assuming how others are thinking and coming to conclusions. I personally think that all you people that rely so heavily on faith are going to be disappointed. Actually you won't feel disappointment because when it's over, it's over so lighten up and enjoy it now.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
willie said:
You are assuming how others are thinking and coming to conclusions. I personally think that all you people that rely so heavily on faith are going to be disappointed. Actually you won't feel disappointment because when it's over, it's over so lighten up and enjoy it now.
However, the reverse is also true; when believers find themselves in the Kingdom of Heaven, they will know that all they believed in was in fact correct, as prophesied.

True, not all believers will make it through those "pearly gates".

There's still a Man up there, empowered to make that decision, it's His and noone else's; He alone has that power to discern.

I said earlier in this thread - that I'd realised that to tell an individual, that if he/she did not believe in The Christ, he or she was going to the underworld - that was not the way to go about trying to win them over and persuade.

I learned you "turn off" more people than you win over, by that kind of rhetoric, so I only expressed that thought when asked: "What are the consequences?"

But, within 45 seconds of physically/mentally expiring, I've been told, you'll know darn well which way you're heading.

The choice, as I've also said - is yours. What will you do with it?
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
That's exactly the problem I see with intelligent design.
I don't believe in "intelligent design" in the modern sense which is an attempt to reconcile the human wisdom's age of the universe with the account of creation. I just accept the account of creation by faith.
 
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