Question about Catholic Churches

libby

New Member
I can't agree with this.

I don't believe that the bread turns into flesh and the wine into blood and the Catholics did not believe in transubstantiation at first. They do now. I think it is error, but I don't think it makes those Catholics that believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord unsaved.

Ignatius of Antioch



"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).


Justin Martyr



"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


Irenaeus



"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).

This is just a start. The good Lord, who desires each of us with a fervent love, humbled Himself to be born in poverty, in a manger, of a woman. This same God the Son died on the Cross so that we might live. Now, IMO, this goes to the passage in the Bible that says (paraphrase) that God's ways are not our ways. Not only are they, "not our ways", but they are quite incomprehensible to us. Nothing He does to show His love is done in a way men think makes sense. Not the least of which...is there a man among us would establish his kingdom by dying? I don't think so, man considers that weakness, not strength.
So the Eucharist is consistent with who the Almighty God has already shown us He is. He humbles Himself and becomes "bread", probably the most basic of the foods, recognized everywhere as nourishment, and He nutures our everlasting soul as regular bread nourishes our mortal flesh.
This teaching of the Catholic Church has been since the beginning, and always will be.

As the Bible says, "This teaching is hard, who can accept it?" John 6:60
 

Dondi

Dondi
I admittedly have partaken of the Lord's Supper or Eucarest in a Catholic Mass once, though I am not Catholic. The priest, of course, had no idea I was non-Catholic, so it is no fault of his. I took it, knowing full well the Catholic doctrine of transubstiation, and not believing in it myself, not as a step of arrogance, but because I wanted to share in the experience of Communion with my fellow Catholic believers. (This was at a military chapel where I didn't know them and they didn't know me, so they didn't know I was not Catholic.) I felt no ill effects and my conscience didn't convict me, rather I felt quite close to the Lord in my reflection and meditation of the elements and what they stood for.

I would have thought that in the Catholic Church, the Lord's Supper would be open to all who has faith in and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. If transubstiation is such a strict doctrine, why would it matter what the partaker believes about the elements? If transubstiation is true, then according to the Catholic position, it remains the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ regardless of the partakers belief, would it not? If the Lord's Supper is essential in the matter of salvation, would not the Catholic Church consider that anyone one with faith in Christ ought to partake?
 

Bavarian

New Member
I admittedly have partaken of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist in a Catholic Mass once, though I am not Catholic. The priest, of course, had no idea I was non-Catholic, so it is no fault of his. I took it, knowing full well the Catholic doctrine of transubstiation, and not believing in it myself, not as a step of arrogance, but because I wanted to share in the experience of Communion with my fellow Catholic believers. (This was at a military chapel where I didn't know them and they didn't know me, so they didn't know I was not Catholic.) I felt no ill effects and my conscience didn't convict me, rather I felt quite close to the Lord in my reflection and meditation of the elements and what they stood for.

I would have thought that in the Catholic Church, the Lord's Supper would be open to all who has faith in and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. If transubstiation is such a strict doctrine, why would it matter what the partaker believes about the elements? If transubstiation is true, then according to the Catholic position, it remains the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ regardless of the partakers belief, would it not? If the Lord's Supper is essential in the matter of salvation, would not the Catholic Church consider that anyone one with faith in Christ ought to partake?

One must be in a state of grace in order to receive the Most Precious Body and Blood of Jesus. It is not allowed to all Catholics any time. If they are in a state of mortal sin, they must first confess their sins to a priest, receive absolution and firmly commit not to commit that sin again.
 

libby

New Member
I admittedly have partaken of the Lord's Supper or Eucarest in a Catholic Mass once, though I am not Catholic. The priest, of course, had no idea I was non-Catholic, so it is no fault of his. I took it, knowing full well the Catholic doctrine of transubstiation, and not believing in it myself, not as a step of arrogance, but because I wanted to share in the experience of Communion with my fellow Catholic believers. (This was at a military chapel where I didn't know them and they didn't know me, so they didn't know I was not Catholic.) I felt no ill effects and my conscience didn't convict me, rather I felt quite close to the Lord in my reflection and meditation of the elements and what they stood for.

I would have thought that in the Catholic Church, the Lord's Supper would be open to all who has faith in and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. If transubstiation is such a strict doctrine, why would it matter what the partaker believes about the elements? If transubstiation is true, then according to the Catholic position, it remains the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ regardless of the partakers belief, would it not? If the Lord's Supper is essential in the matter of salvation, would not the Catholic Church consider that anyone one with faith in Christ ought to partake?

I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly, so I'll address what I think I'm reading.
The True Presence of Jesus is not affected in any way by the disposition of the receiver, so you did partake of His Body and Blood. My Bible isn't handy right now, but Paul does tell early Christians that participating unworthily is to be guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church takes this very seriously, thus the teaching.
Judas knew full well who Jesus Christ was, but betrayed what he knew. The Sripture tells us that when Judas ate the "bread" at the Last Supper, "Satan entered him." I am not comparing you to Judas, keep that in mind.
If Jesus Christ were standing before you in His human Body, or were coming to your house for dinner, knowing He is who He is, would you not prepare your soul, mind and heart? Or would you receive Him as casually as anyone else? The Church's job is to teach, guide and prepare us for the Lord, but neither you nor I are not forced into compliance.
 

Radiant1

Soul Probe
I admittedly have partaken of the Lord's Supper or Eucarest in a Catholic Mass once, though I am not Catholic. The priest, of course, had no idea I was non-Catholic, so it is no fault of his. I took it, knowing full well the Catholic doctrine of transubstiation, and not believing in it myself, not as a step of arrogance, but because I wanted to share in the experience of Communion with my fellow Catholic believers. (This was at a military chapel where I didn't know them and they didn't know me, so they didn't know I was not Catholic.) I felt no ill effects and my conscience didn't convict me, rather I felt quite close to the Lord in my reflection and meditation of the elements and what they stood for.

I would have thought that in the Catholic Church, the Lord's Supper would be open to all who has faith in and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. If transubstiation is such a strict doctrine, why would it matter what the partaker believes about the elements? If transubstiation is true, then according to the Catholic position, it remains the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ regardless of the partakers belief, would it not? If the Lord's Supper is essential in the matter of salvation, would not the Catholic Church consider that anyone one with faith in Christ ought to partake?

You're right, the reality of Eucharist doesn't change. However you will need to define "faith" here. What some people believe about Christ is not the same as others.

To partake in Eucharist is not only to partake in the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord but also to commune with a body of believers i.e. the Mystical Body of Christ. If you don't believe the same then you can't exactly be in "communion" now can you?
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
One must be in a state of grace in order to receive the Most Precious Body and Blood of Jesus. It is not allowed to all Catholics any time. If they are in a state of mortal sin, they must first confess their sins to a priest, receive absolution and firmly commit not to commit that sin again.

Tell the truth; remember lying is a sin. When you take the wafer and wine, do they actually turn into flesh and blood and chew and taste like flesh and blood?
 

libby

New Member
Tell the truth; remember lying is a sin. When you take the wafer and wine, do they actually turn into flesh and blood and chew and taste like flesh and blood?

And what has this got to do with any part of the discussion? God can do what He wills. How can a man be God? Some of the Jews wondered. Well, a man cannot be God, but God can be a man, and He was. A piece of bread cannot be God, but God can be a piece of bread. Who are we to know His mind?
You question sound eerily like those at the foot of the Cross who said, "If you are God, save yourself."
The elements of God do not have to behave in a way that jives with our finite minds, whether that means coming down from a cross, or chewing and tasting like flesh and blood.
 

Bavarian

New Member
Tell the truth; remember lying is a sin. When you take the wafer and wine, do they actually turn into flesh and blood and chew and taste like flesh and blood?

First, the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ at the Consecration, the most important part of the Mass. When the priest says "This is My Body" and then "This is My Blood" remember, when performing the sacraments, the priest takes the place of Christ, his own sinfulness or lack there of, does not prevent the Consecration from taking place, as long as he uses the exact words in the missal. No improvisation.

There are many reported miracles, some to this day, where consecrated Hosts have taken on a consistency of human flesh.
 

tommyjones

New Member
Tell the truth; remember lying is a sin. When you take the wafer and wine, do they actually turn into flesh and blood and chew and taste like flesh and blood?

why would you choose to not believe that particular miracle?

I mean Jesus said "take this bread, it is my body, and this wine my blood"

you mean the Christ was lying?
 
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BlueBird

Well-Known Member
I was going to stay out of this discussion but it hasn't been added yet by any of the Catholic posters that.....


"We believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins"
This is just one excerpt from the Apostles creed which is said at every mass...

The Catholic Church is the oldest organized Christian religion in the world and it is believed by Catholics (including myself) that our faith is a direct descendant of Christ, Catholicism is the church formed in Jesus' name by Peter.

The Eucharist "Communion" is an acceptance of the Catholic faith. To accept Communion at a Catholic Mass means that you are accepting everything that is attached to the Eucharist - our beliefs. The most important belief here is that we accept the Eucharist as the BODY and BLOOD of CHRIST (as already mentioned). There's no symbology here and by accepting the Eucharist we also accept the rules of the church and accept that any personal opinion regarding morality that goes against these beliefs are a sin.

As a protestant, why would anyone want to partake in something you are against?

I’m not criticizing any beliefs here and I hope that all Protestants believe as strongly towards what their church teaches as many Catholics do……

God bless.
 

Dondi

Dondi
One must be in a state of grace in order to receive the Most Precious Body and Blood of Jesus. It is not allowed to all Catholics any time. If they are in a state of mortal sin, they must first confess their sins to a priest, receive absolution and firmly commit not to commit that sin again.

Who determines if you are in a "state of grace"? I did confess my sins beforehand, but only to God through Christ, who is the mediator between God and man (I Timothy 2:5). I am aware of the seriousness of partaking the Lord's Supper unworthily.
 

Dondi

Dondi
I'm not sure I'm reading your post correctly, so I'll address what I think I'm reading.
The True Presence of Jesus is not affected in any way by the disposition of the receiver, so you did partake of His Body and Blood. My Bible isn't handy right now, but Paul does tell early Christians that participating unworthily is to be guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church takes this very seriously, thus the teaching.
Judas knew full well who Jesus Christ was, but betrayed what he knew. The Sripture tells us that when Judas ate the "bread" at the Last Supper, "Satan entered him." I am not comparing you to Judas, keep that in mind.
If Jesus Christ were standing before you in His human Body, or were coming to your house for dinner, knowing He is who He is, would you not prepare your soul, mind and heart? Or would you receive Him as casually as anyone else? The Church's job is to teach, guide and prepare us for the Lord, but neither you nor I are not forced into compliance.

As I stated above, I do take seriously the Lord's Supper. I prepared my heart, soul, and mind beforehand. It is definitely not a casual matter, for Christ represents the only salvation for man.

To compare me to Judas would be rather harsh. If I partook of the Eucharest in a belligerant fashion, just to try to screw things up in the Mass, then I would be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But that was far from my intention.
 

Dondi

Dondi
You're right, the reality of Eucharist doesn't change. However you will need to define "faith" here. What some people believe about Christ is not the same as others.

To partake in Eucharist is not only to partake in the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord but also to commune with a body of believers i.e. the Mystical Body of Christ. If you don't believe the same then you can't exactly be in "communion" now can you?


Depends on what you view as a body of believers. We all must come to the Lord in Spirit and in Truth. That is what Jesus told a Samaritan woman. And yet the Samaritans were an aberrant offshoot of the Jewish faith, yet Jesus must needs to to there. He didn't try and change her religion, but pointed her to God and Himself.

Or do you not remember what happened when the disciples told Jesus about a man who was not of them, yet casting out demons in Jesus' name?

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part.

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." - Mark 9:38-41


I think you are in for a rude awakening if you believe only Catholics have a shot at heaven. The "Mystical Body of Christ" is larger than you imagine.
 

Radiant1

Soul Probe
I am aware of the seriousness of partaking the Lord's Supper unworthily.

If I partook of the Eucharest in a belligerant fashion, just to try to screw things up in the Mass, then I would be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But that was far from my intention.

Presumptious AND belligerent. You knew that while at a Catholic Mass you were not invited to partake, but you chose to do so anyway.

Depends on what you view as a body of believers.

Which is why I asked you to define "faith" in this instance.
 

Dondi

Dondi
Presumptious AND belligerent. You knew that while at a Catholic Mass you were not invited to partake, but you chose to do so anyway.

I never sensed that I wasn't invited. I claim Jesus as my Savior as much as you do. As a believer, why should I be excluded from from the rite?



Which is why I asked you to define "faith" in this instance.

I believe that Jesus Christ dies from my sins, was buried, and rose again according to the scripture. That His body bore the sins of my trangressions and that His Blood was poured out as an offering for the atonement for sins. Only through Christ is my sins forgiven and the hope of heaven is available for such a sinner as I.

That belief extend beyond mere mental accent, but that by trusting God and obeying his commandments, through the instrument of the Holy Spirit, His Life can be expressed in mine, as I submit to His Lordship. That abiding in Christ brings fulfillment and joy in the Holy Spirit and brings the realization of the purpose God has in my life, namely to love Him and serve Him and my neighbor.
 

BlueBird

Well-Known Member
I never sensed that I wasn't invited. I claim Jesus as my Savior as much as you do. As a believer, why should I be excluded from from the rite?





I believe that Jesus Christ dies from my sins, was buried, and rose again according to the scripture. That His body bore the sins of my trangressions and that His Blood was poured out as an offering for the atonement for sins. Only through Christ is my sins forgiven and the hope of heaven is available for such a sinner as I.

That belief extend beyond mere mental accent, but that by trusting God and obeying his commandments, through the instrument of the Holy Spirit, His Life can be expressed in mine, as I submit to His Lordship. That abiding in Christ brings fulfillment and joy in the Holy Spirit and brings the realization of the purpose God has in my life, namely to love Him and serve Him and my neighbor.

The answer here is rather simple. You should have not partaken in the Eucharist because you are not Catholic. If you beleive in the Eucharist and accept that by taking the Eucharist you believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church than you wouldn't be a protestant.

God will judge your heart not us. By accepting communion at mass though violates your own personal beliefs and that in itself is disrespectful to God.

I suggest you attend some RCIA classes so you can gather a full understanding of Catholicism prior to ever receiving the Eucharist at a Catholic mass again.

God Bless.
 

Dondi

Dondi
To be fair, I only did this once. I'm not in the habit of crashing Catholic Masses.

I took the Eucharest in order to draw close to God. I believe the presence of Christ was with me, whether in the elements or spiritually, I do not know. All I know is that I felt closer to God in my reflections and meditation during the act. Call it testing the waters, if you will. I wanted to experience it once without having to convert. I don't think it was disrespectful at all to try and seek Him out in this manner. And I feel no condemnation in my heart in doing so.

God is the God of all. Catholics do not have the corner on God. Do you think that when we are all standing before the throne of God and sit at His banqueting table that He's gonna care what denomination we are?
 

BlueBird

Well-Known Member
To be fair, I only did this once. I'm not in the habit of crashing Catholic Masses.

I took the Eucharest in order to draw close to God. I believe the presence of Christ was with me, whether in the elements or spiritually, I do not know. All I know is that I felt closer to God in my reflections and meditation during the act. Call it testing the waters, if you will. I wanted to experience it once without having to convert. I don't think it was disrespectful at all to try and seek Him out in this manner. And I feel no condemnation in my heart in doing so.

God is the God of all. Catholics do not have the corner on God. Do you think that when we are all standing before the throne of God and sit at His banqueting table that He's gonna care what denomination we are?

I believe the Apostles Creed... hence I am Catholic and accept that the Catholic Church is the one true church. This is my my faith. I won't judge who goes to heaven and who doesn't, that's for God to decide.

I beleive that the Catholic Church was founded by Peter as Christ directed him to do. If I didn't believe this I would be protestant.
 

Dondi

Dondi
I believe the Apostles Creed... hence I am Catholic and accept that the Catholic Church is the one true church. This is my my faith. I won't judge who goes to heaven and who doesn't, that's for God to decide.

I beleive that the Catholic Church was founded by Peter as Christ directed him to do. If I didn't believe this I would be protestant.

I believe in the Apostle's creed as well. I believe in a holy catholic church and the communion of saints. I believe the church was founded by Peter and the rest of the Apostles. We don't differ in much, except you believe the Catholic church to be the One True Church, wheras I believe that the Catholic Church is a part of the holy catholic church.

You asked me what faith is. I told you. Your faith is evidently tied up in your church, judging from the response above. But what is your faith in God like? How has a relationship with God changed your life?
 

BlueBird

Well-Known Member
I believe in the Apostle's creed as well. I believe in a holy catholic church and the communion of saints. I believe the church was founded by Peter and the rest of the Apostles. We don't differ in much, except you believe the Catholic church to be the One True Church, wheras I believe that the Catholic Church is a part of the holy catholic church.

You asked me what faith is. I told you. Your faith is evidently tied up in your church, judging from the response above. But what is your faith in God like? How has a relationship with God changed your life?

That's a very personal questyion and the answer is not one that I would be willing to share with you on an internet forum. My faith is re-inforced by the teachings of the Catholic Church. You may interpret this any way you like.

I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true Catholic church - yes.

There are other "churches" which are very close to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Orthodox and Lutheran are a few....

There are others....
 
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