Traffic Rant Road constrction By Harris Teeter/235 & Rt 4

awpitt

Main Streeter
This all goes back to all the upfront BS that is now required of these kind of projects that wasn't before. Even the most simplistic jobs require environmental impact studies which require review and comment. Then work needs to get blessed before even being largely designed, let alone bid. You have a bunch of people who know little to nothing about the work - or need for it - weighing in on whether or not it should happen. God forbid someone challenges the build. Then go to permitting where EVERY jurisdiction has a their own set of permits with new ones being required all the time. Add NPDES requirements, Clean Water Act requirements. Review by ACOE and MDE/EPA, etc., etc. .............. all for something as simple as replacing a bridge where it previously stood.

There is SOOOOO much money spent above common sense approaches (with some simple checks and balances) that not only substantially inflates costs but also inflates schedules. For the most part, building the actual work is the easy part.

The GGB was built in 2-3 years because it could be. They likely didn't have moratoriums on the work during "fish f&cking season" or restrictions tidal marsh access. They probably didn't have requirements about anchoring barges into the water over a set period of time or where they could placed into the water.

Even simple jobs are boggled down with red tape, political leverage and the "feelings" of those whose input shouldn't matter.
You might want to ask the folks in downtown Ellicott City about environmental impact studies that were never done.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Let's be fair, please. The people trying to get FDR Blvd completed have been stymied mostly by NIMBYs, not their own incompetence. If you study the actual history of the project, land acquisition has been the primary holdup. Much as it might speed some projects along from time to time, I'm quite happy that the county cannot simply appropriate all the land they want without due process ("eminent domain"). So yes, it's frustrating, but I think FDR has proceeded reasonably well all things considered.

Now if they'd just turn their attention to pushing Pegg Road all the way through to Rt 249, and get rid of the bottleneck at Great Mills...


Concur, they have been steady working this for a long time with a huge amount of players, quite a lot of them who never wanted it to happen. And I agree that Pegg Roads extension is a pretty big deal. But they need to lead that target with the state to make sure that Rt5 is ready for it. And that the intersection with Indian Bridge works properly.



and the "feelings" of those whose input shouldn't matter.

Ohboy, now you've done it........ :)
 

John Z

if you will
Well I had the misfortune of turning right at the light by CVS on GMR the other day because my buddy said it was a shortcut to Pegg Rd.
I don't know who owns the roads back there (State, County or Private), but they look like they are out of a war zone.
Is that neighborhood so bad that the roads are left in such poor shape?
I cut through that neighborhood for the first time in my 20 years working at Pax, and i was also surprised how bad some of that road (Midway Drive?) was.
 

MiddleGround

Active Member
What is the excuse for the debachle at Airport Road? All the drains in front of CBIP and Outback are still blocked and the corner of Airport and 235 has had ZERO progress in months!
 

glhs837

Power with Control
I cut through that neighborhood for the first time in my 20 years working at Pax, and i was also surprised how bad some of that road (Midway Drive?) was.
Yeah, I lived there back in the 1997/8 timeframe and it wanst bad at all. But the county needed to replace a lot of the sewer/storm drain lines that were laid down when that area was built in I think the lat 40s, early 50s. And whomever they hired to do that seems to have just screwed it away.
 

Hannibal

Member
You might want to ask the folks in downtown Ellicott City about environmental impact studies that were never done.
That whole area is a failure of proper storm water management ...... not necessary an EIS review. And if I lived there, I'd be beyond pissed because the County essentially did nothing but restore the area back to it's pre-flood condition ..... without correcting the underlying failures. It was a band aid response that they were (likely) banking wouldn't have them exposed for many more years (until another storm of such intensity came through). They certainly didn't expect it to happen a mere two-years later.
 

Hannibal

Member
You might want to ask the folks in downtown Ellicott City about environmental impact studies that were never done.
Also want to point out the ways things work. That initial storm was two years ago. Prior to that, I believe the last similar event was in the 90's. As I said, following the storm two years ago, scope of work in the area was essentially limited to clean up and restoration back to original conditions. It was a band aid task.

Following that work - the gov't issued a design for a multiple bay/channel culvert system to divert storm water around main street. Prices were solicited and if I had to guess, would say fell somewhere in the $6-8m range. Not sure what the Engineer's estimate was. However, I believe it was deemed to expensive and was not pursued. Obviously it was never built.

Given the cost of the 2016 cleanup and some of the estimates for this latest storm ....... which do you think was the least costly option?
 

kom526

They call me ... Sarcasmo
Also want to point out the ways things work. That initial storm was two years ago. Prior to that, I believe the last similar event was in the 90's. As I said, following the storm two years ago, scope of work in the area was essentially limited to clean up and restoration back to original conditions. It was a band aid task.

Following that work - the gov't issued a design for a multiple bay/channel culvert system to divert storm water around main street. Prices were solicited and if I had to guess, would say fell somewhere in the $6-8m range. Not sure what the Engineer's estimate was. However, I believe it was deemed to expensive and was not pursued. Obviously it was never built.

Given the cost of the 2016 cleanup and some of the estimates for this latest storm ....... which do you think was the least costly option?
He’s probably referring to the all the development uphill from Downtown EC. Shopping centers and housing developments and the accompanying impermeable surfaces.
 

BernieP

Resident PIA
The barrels were moved opening up the second left turn lane on 235 NB at rt 4 today.
Maybe someone got the message.

Schiat or get off the pot.
 

BernieP

Resident PIA
Sunday's heavy rain has apparently helped to excavate the hole in the middle of the road.
The standing / running water flooding the west bound lane is now brown and filling the storm drains with silt from the hole.
 

RoseRed

American Beauty
PREMO Member
There was a story in the Enterprise last week about this. Something about the developers are in charge of this, along with the State. There were Miss Utility lines that were not properly marked. Among other things. Either way, it's a PITA.
 

somdforever

New Member
Here's the info straight from the "horse's mouth". Make of it what you will. From SHA:

a. SHA told the contractor to revise marking and signs for the left turn onto FDR Blvd.

Contractor need only accept, then execute. Could be very fast.

While working on the intersection the Contractor discovered 2 major new problems:

MEDIAN: design issues, elevation changes from plan
STORM DRAIN: discovered a set of Verizon conduits in an unexpected location

b. SHA is waiting for new plan from Contractor (may require test pits).

SHA must approve new Contractor plan. If it's a bad plan SHA may disapprove, causing further delay.
Will probably take 6 more weeks to complete.
Likely end date: August 2018
 

Potomac

New Member
The heavy shower late yesterday caused serious overwash/flooding in the low lying area near that church entrance. I drive a mid-sized sedan and did ok through there but I would have preferred not go to thru if I'd had that option at all. But once you are in the chute, there is no turning back & having bumper to bumper traffic leaves no options. It doesn't help at all that other motorists insist on driving through there like complete maniacs. We all know the road is torn apart, we all know it is far from ideal, but barreling through there, honking at others taking their time & driving cautiously doesn't improve the situation especially with SEVERAL inches of moving water across the road AND poor visibility.
 

jazz lady

~*~ rara avis ~*~
The heavy shower late yesterday caused serious overwash/flooding in the low lying area near that church entrance. I drive a mid-sized sedan and did ok through there but I would have preferred not go to thru if I'd had that option at all. But once you are in the chute, there is no turning back & having bumper to bumper traffic leaves no options. It doesn't help at all that other motorists insist on driving through there like complete maniacs. We all know the road is torn apart, we all know it is far from ideal, but barreling through there, honking at others taking their time & driving cautiously doesn't improve the situation especially with SEVERAL inches of moving water across the road AND poor visibility.
I had that happen a couple of months ago and I was glad I drive a heavy sedan but there was a bit of a pucker factor going through it. Same situation yesterday exiting from Airport Road onto 235 Southbound. Very thankful no one was behind me so I could drive through slowly.
 

Goldenhawk

Active Member
Very thankful no one was behind me so I could drive through slowly.
Maybe more than many people, I do think about the effect my driving has on those around me. But in that situation? If there is someone behind me, they can bloody well wait for me to safely proceed. Who cares if they're annoyed!
 

jazz lady

~*~ rara avis ~*~
Maybe more than many people, I do think about the effect my driving has on those around me. But in that situation? If there is someone behind me, they can bloody well wait for me to safely proceed. Who cares if they're annoyed!
I was thinking more as it was very unexpected and I braked hard before I went through it to minimize my speed, so somebody behind me could have potentially hit me as I know how people drive through there normally. Pretty much like Fred Flintstone leaving the quarry after work and going like a bat out of hell!
 

Airgasm

Well-Known Member
:tap::tap::tap: Really, still nothing...

How long has it been since the Harris Teeter shopping center opened?
 
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jazz lady

~*~ rara avis ~*~
:tap::tap::tap: Really, still nothing...

How long has it been since the Harris Teeter shopping center opened?
Commissioner Todd Morgan posted this blurb today on his FB page:

FINALLY... I received a call this morning and am pleased to report that MD State Highway Dept. has approved plans and permits for the completion of the intersection of Rt. 4 and 235...aka Harris Teeter. I know, like you , this has taken forever to get through and everyone's inconvenience ( not to mention the flooding) . Let's hope the weather cooperates and the contractor makes this their top priority. Thanks
Just because it is now approved doesn't mean the contractor will actually get the job done in a timely matter. :ohwell:
 
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