Salvation--a real dialogue

[Chuckt]

So what yr saying is that, to win in your game, you have to choose the right team or yr toast? Kinda like gambling on NFL football.

I don't know what you are getting at.

You certainly can't blame a child who is stillborn for not choosing Christ when it never had a chance to believe or reject God.
That is something God has to figure out and because I believe God is just, God will figure that out and since God wants everyone to be saved, they are probably better off without a choice but I don't have the game plan for all the exceptions so the difficulty is going beyond what is written. I have the game plan for those who can hear and you can hear.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

We give you the gospel and you can accept God or reject God. Children never born cannot reject God so they can't be judged for rejecting God but that doesn't make them innocent so God will have to write that chapter that I am unable to write but I know that God is merciful and just.

 

[Chuckt]

I don't know what you are getting at.

You certainly can't blame a child who is stillborn for not choosing Christ when it never had a chance to believe or reject God.
That is something God has to figure out and because I believe God is just, God will figure that out and since God wants everyone to be saved, they are probably better off without a choice but I don't have the game plan for all the exceptions so the difficulty is going beyond what is written. I have the game plan for those who can hear and you can hear.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

We give you the gospel and you can accept God or reject God. Children never born cannot reject God so they can't be judged for rejecting God but that doesn't make them innocent so God will have to write that chapter that I am unable to write but I know that God is merciful and just.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Blot out means "erase" or cover over a name. You can't be blotted out of the book of life if your name was never written in it. You also can't be blotted out if you don't sin against God and children with Down's syndrome can't consciously sin against God so they can't be blotted out of God's book. They are not sinless because we all have inherited sin so the next chapter has to be written by God but based on the Bible, you can't decide what Evangelicals believe because the Bible evidence is in this post; Their names are written in heaven (the book of life) until they are blotted out.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Gilligan]

We give you the gospel ....

oh really. Who exactly is "we"?

 

[Chuckt]

oh really. Who exactly is "we"?

Anyone that gives you the gospel that God holds you accountable for.

 

[Gilligan]

Anyone that gives you the gospel that God holds you accountable for.

Does that show up on my credit report? I sure hope not.

Can I claim an exemption because I'm a Druid?

 

[hotcoffee]

Maybe you should ask him if they are only friendly with protestant pastors that are liberal and friendly with Rome.

They are only responsible to the amount of light they are given and the Bible does teach an age of accountability. The Catholics are taking the clear verses that talk about people who know to do good but don't and applying them to people who can't make decisions for themselves and thereby calling God unmerciful according to our theology so they are doing their best to misrepresent us and I've never been dishonest and misrepresented them.

What age is it...specifically? Would hate to see anyone miss the cutoff date.

Might I add to Gilligan's brilliant reply.... just how much light must be given?

Children are children because they are innocent.

Innocence isn't based on age or the number of times they have been to a brick and mortar church.

That's like asking how many good deeds does a person have to accomplish before they can get into Heaven.

What would happen if in order to be saved you had to do 100 good deeds and a truck runs over you at good deed number 99?

 

[Chuckt]

Might I add to Gilligan's brilliant reply.... just how much light must be given?

Children are children because they are innocent.

Innocence isn't based on age or the number of times they have been to a brick and mortar church.

That's like asking how many good deeds does a person have to accomplish before they can get into Heaven.

What would happen if in order to be saved you had to do 100 good deeds and a truck runs over you at good deed number 99?

My two year old niece knew how to lie. I don't have to tell them not to sin because they are already programmed to do it.
I ask two year olds if they are poopy and they don't want to stop playing so they say, "no". I ask them what they doing and they say, "nothing".

When does someone become a horse thief or were they always a horse thief?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David said he was born a sinner.

Adam was the prototype and Adam sinned so you can do no better and children can do no better and if you didn't have sin then you wouldn't die some day.

Do you know why you have to be born again? Because in Adam all die (1 Cor. 5:22) and God said to Adam in Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

You died spiritually the day Adam ate from the tree and God won't let you live forever in a body of sin on this earth which is why we all die.

 

[Gilligan]

When does someone become a horse thief or were they always a horse thief?

What about a car thief?

 

[hotcoffee]

My two year old niece knew how to lie. I don't have to tell them not to sin because they are already programmed to do it.
I ask two year olds if they are poopy and they don't want to stop playing so they say, "no". I ask them what they doing and they say, "nothing".

When does someone become a horse thief or were they always a horse thief?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David said he was born a sinner.

Adam was the prototype and Adam sinned so you can do no better and children can do no better and if you didn't have sin then you wouldn't die some day.

Do you know why you have to be born again? Because in Adam all die (1 Cor. 5:22) and God said to Adam in Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

You died spiritually the day Adam ate from the tree and God won't let you live forever in a body of sin on this earth which is why we all die.

This is all true. However, I don't recall the thief on the cross saying the sinner's prayer.

Jesus developed a relationship with him and declared that on that day the thief would join him in paradise.

In the case of the woman with Downs Syndrome, who's to say how Jesus would form a relationship with her? He spoke to the woman at the well. Did he communicate with the woman with Downs Syndrome? Does communication have to be in the form of oral communications? Does it have to be in any form you and I can understand or even visualize?

We read that Jesus understood innocence.

 

[Chuckt]

This is all true. However, I don't recall the thief on the cross saying the sinner's prayer.

Jesus developed a relationship with him and declared that on that day the thief would join him in paradise.

In the case of the woman with Downs Syndrome, who's to say how Jesus would form a relationship with her? He spoke to the woman at the well. Did he communicate with the woman with Downs Syndrome? Does communication have to be in the form of oral communications? Does it have to be in any form you and I can understand or even visualize?

We read that Jesus understood innocence.

If you could work your way to heaven then why do we have to die someday? Couldn't you work off your sins so that you could live forever on earth and never leave through death?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If children are sinless then why do they die?

 

[Chuckt]

This is all true. However, I don't recall the thief on the cross saying the sinner's prayer.

Some think the thief was following Jesus around and heard Jesus speak to the crowds before so there is more to the story and it isn't some random meeting on the cross.

 

[Gilligan]

Some think the thief was following Jesus around ..

They know this from selfies?...surveillance cams?....FB posts?

 

[onel0126]

Some think the thief was following Jesus around and heard Jesus speak to the crowds before so there is more to the story and it isn't some random meeting on the cross.

More extra biblical assumptions from you. Keep proving you're not a subscriber to sola scriptura; this is fun!

 

[Chuckt]

More extra biblical assumptions from you. Keep proving you're not a subscriber to sola scriptura; this is fun!

Do you know the definition to sola scriptura? It means scripture alone. Therefore when I'm appealing to scripture then you can't accuse me of not being a subscriber to sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by Scripture alone") is the Protestant Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice.
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

 

[Gilligan]

Do you know the definition to sola scriptura? It means scripture alone. Therefore when I'm appealing to scripture then you can't accuse me of not being a subscriber to sola scriptura.

]

I think we were more curious about how it is you think you know that local riff raff had been following Jesus around.

 

[onel0126]

Do you know the definition to sola scriptura? It means scripture alone. Therefore when I'm appealing to scripture then you can't accuse me of not being a subscriber to sola scriptura. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

What is scriptural about "some believe the good thief..." That is the epitome of extra-Biblical.

 

[Chuckt]

What is scriptural about "some believe the good thief..." That is the epitome of extra-Biblical.

No. People who study it found what he said and placed it in the gospels.

This supposition would account for his declaration concerning Christ, that he had done nothing amiss — Ουδεν ατοπον, nothing improper, disorderly, or out of place, as the words signify: a declaration which he certainly could with no propriety have made, unless he had firmly believed Jesus to be the true Messiah, and therefore innocent of those things which the Jews laid to his charge.

-Benson Commentary

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/23-39.htm

So if there is no external evidence, the thief couldn't say that he believed Jesus to be the messiah and was innocent unless the thief observed Jesus by being around him.

We practiced making observations in Bible school and some people come up with 400 observations. How much is in your text? If you don't study, everything is extra-Biblical. But if we study, we actually learn and are able to place more than someone who wasn't there or doesn't know.

 

[onel0126]

No. People who study it found what he said and placed it in the gospels.

All of you SS adherents' silence is deafening. The quote above is unbelievable. Thank you for failing at apologetics ChuckT

 

[Chuckt]

All of you SS adherents' silence is deafening. The quote above is unbelievable. Thank you for failing at apologetics ChuckT

But you are trying to say I'm wrong before I find the example that I heard from one pastor on the radio. I listen to a lot of scholars, pastors, teachers, etc. I read a lot of reference books. I comprehend and I'm always learning. I always have teaching on in the car during my commutes. If I was selfish, do you know how much teaching I would listen to? I would listen to nobody because self would be talking from the abundance of my heart. Believe what you want, don't listen and let self form your opinions even though there are other evidences and consequences.

King James Bible
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/18-13.htm

 

[hotcoffee]

If children are sinless then why do they die?

I really don't know why innocent people, children or adults, die.

I also don't know why bad things happen to good people.

When I consider Job 1 I can see that God had a reason for the action He took, even though it isn't a reason I particularly appreciate.

I lost 6 children to miscarriage. I don't know why I was never allowed to meet them.

I don't know why my daughter had to face ovarian cancer before she turned 18. She works at a nursing home. She takes care of people who are dying every day.

Might I suggest that Jonah 4 is the answer you are looking for?

We just don't know. That's why Salvation requires Faith IMHO.