Springfield Arms...

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Did you ever take into effect psychological effects of getting shot? Yes some people fall down when getting shot, that does not necessarily mean that the force of the rounds impact is what caused it.

Bob it's obvious you have your feeling on it, I am just presenting you with what the experts on the field of wound ballistics say about it. These aren't just internet gun nuts throwing out their feelings, they are researchers with experience.

Newton's law of motion tells me that if the recoil of the firearm won't normally knock the shooter down, then the force of the impact of the round alone, will not normally knock the person getting shot down.

The only problem with newton's law (as I understand it and as it also applies to explosives) the path of energy follows the path of least resistance.. ie.. SOME of the energy is going to be transferred to the shoother's shoulder, MOST of the energy is following the bullet down the barrel of the gun.

I don't know where these new experts came from, but they claim myths about proven facts and anecdotal evidence from history. They claim they disprove facts in their research, yet history says they are wrong.

I will admit I was impressed with the drywall shooting. I never would have guessed a .45 round would do that.. but as far as knock down power myths, transfer of energy myths.. I'm not buying it.

Hell the .45 came into existence because of a WAR, and it was proven at the time the 9mm could not stop a charging drug crazed native yet a .45 would stop him in his tracks, and history tells that story again and again. An expert can prove a theory right or wrong through research, they can't prove historical evidence and facts wrong.

And when it comes down to the people who's lives depend on their weapon's choices daily (if they are empowered to make the choice)EVERY single one of them pick the .45/ 10mm over the 9mm.. I haven't heard of a single SF group that carries the military issue 9mm, and you want to talk about real world research..
 
Last edited:

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
The only problem with newton's law (as I understand it and as it also applies to explosives) the path of energy follows the path of least resistance.. ie.. SOME of the energy is going to be transferred to the shoother's shoulder, MOST of the energy is following the bullet down the barrel of the gun.

I don't know where these new experts came from, but they claim myths about proven facts and anecdotal evidence from history. They claim they disprove facts in their research, yet history says they are wrong.

I will admit I was impressed with the drywall shooting. I never would have guessed a .45 round would do that.. but as far as knock down power myths, transfer of energy myths.. I'm not buying it.

Hell the .45 came into existence because of a WAR, and it was proven at the time the 9mm could not stop a charging drug crazed native yet a .45 would stop him in his tracks, and history tells that story again and again. An expert can prove a theory right or wrong through research, they can't prove historical evidence and facts wrong.

And when it comes down to the people who's lives depend on their weapon's choices daily (if they are empowered to make the choice)EVERY single one of them pick the .45/ 10mm over the 9mm.. I haven't heard of a single SF group that carries the military issue 9mm, and you want to talk about real world research..

Like I said, I provided some links with info. and the opinion of the leading most expert in the field on it. I've been really reading about this topic for years and my opinion is that there is no such thing as "stopping/knock down power" in handgun rounds. Yes heavy/larger caliber rounds perform marginally better at certain tasks, like penetrating vehicle glass or other medium density barriers without deflecting but its all just still a compromise with a handgun no matter what.

What you are eluding to as evidence are stories, military stories, police stories whatever...... I've been around both enough to know they can come up with some of the most outrageous BS when it comes to firearms and shootings. 50bmg can blow the targets arm off without even hitting it ect....

You should read Dr. Facklers info. and background and then check out his findings before you just dismiss him as someone with no real world experience.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Hmmmm since tissue is soft the transfer of energy would be negligible. If you had a 1 inch slab of metal strapped to your chest you would get knocked down because the energy is transfered into the slab. If you get shot in the bare chest the bullet retains the energy as it passes through the soft tissue.
If it passed all the way through like a large calibre rifle round I think you'd be right, but if a handgun round doesn't go all the way through ALL the energy has to be transferred
 
If it passed all the way through like a large calibre rifle round I think you'd be right, but if a handgun round doesn't go all the way through ALL the energy has to be transferred

Ok, so I fire at someone using say a 12 guage slug. I am expecting the recoil and absorb it with the weight of the gun and the shoulder. He is not expecting it. Does it knock his butt down or not? Lets say it hits mid sternum.
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
Myth busters also busted the myth of knock down power twice in 2005. The information is out there, all over the internet from reliable resources on why it is not a valid theory.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
OK, boys and girls. We're missing the point here. Is the goal to 'knock' someone down or render them unable to continue to harm you?

A .45 230 grain FMJ does have more 'knock down' power than, say, a 9mm 115 grain and a .44 mag has more 'knockdown' power than a .45. I say this based on my plate rack.

The exact same com hit on a plate, a ,22 lr will knock the plate down. Kinda. It more tips it over. A rather gentle event, such as it is. The 9mm goes down, quick. The .45 goes DOWN and the .44 mag GOES DOWN. Each one is successively more violent than the previous.

That tells me that a person would feel a different force from each and, perhaps, be pushed, punched so to speak, harder, by a .45 over a 9mm but, BUT, a .22lr, much as in bobs tank example, right to your spine, WILL shut you down and stay down, right now, and you're gonna feel, I would guess, more a sting, than a punch but, your are dead. Where as the .45 to, say, the shoulder or, that missed your spine by enough, you, I would wager, 'feel' more of a punch, a knock, yet you are still in the fight.

So, given a .22lr pistol or a .45, I would rather be suddenly facing a drugged up Philippinean tribesman with the .45 and start getting some punches in, stun him, break his shoulder, etc, than hope and pray the .22 finds something vital on the first shot or two.

By the same token, I would MUCH rather have that .22, call it a .223, in a carbine with that tribesman trying to kill me than a .45 or .44 pistol. Obviously, a .223 has much more powder and fps behind it but, it's still tiny compared to the .45 and will be less of a 'punch' and, like bobs tank, you may not know you're hit right away because it ripped through you so fast. You are in deep trouble though, if it hits something good and I am more likely to get that on you with a carbine, better aim, more shots, etc, than a pistol.

I mean, this conversation goes all over the place but, the few people I've talked to who have actually been in combat tell me that if they are down to a sidearm, they done ####ed up somewhere. They do NOT wanna be down to .45 or 9mm and will do everything they can to get or keep their rifle going before moving to the sidearm. And when cops are going through a door and expect violence, they want a shotgun first and foremost. Not some damn pistol.



Let the games continue! :buddies:
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
But Larry we are not solid plates, we are soft, and our flesh and internals are generally stretchy. 22lr. is not a good example because it is so small compared to the major defensive handgun loads, especially when you check out some of the good defensive rounds and what they can expand to.

Think about the amount of force it would take me to push that same metal plate over with my fingers to equal the rapidness of it going over has fast as it did with that 44 mag round hitting it. Not very much. And if I were to come push you with my fingers with that same force you'd probably just think I was trying to get fresh, not knock you down.
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
One more

I'll copy and paste this one so hopefully someone will read and consider it

The truth about handgun knockdown power
11/19/2008

P1 Exclusive: The truth about handgun knockdown power
By Commander Jeffry L. Johnson
Long Beach Police Dept., Detective Division
Special contributor to PoliceOne

There is undoubtedly no other myth more perpetuated and closely held (even now) by many law enforcement professionals than what I have previously referred to as the “Demonstrative Bullet Fallacy,” or in plainer terms, the idea that any handgun of any caliber has “knockdown power,” in that the sheer size and force of the bullet can knock a person down. Closely related is the myth that bullet size — rather than shot placement — can determine or ensure a “one shot stop.” Both are inaccurate, unscientific, and dangerous, and have no place in the training of law enforcement professionals.
Not that any of this is new information. This fact has been generally known for about six hundred years or so. Notable intellects such as DaVinci, Galileo, Newton, Francis Bacon, and Leonard Euler all studied physics and ballistics, as did many others. It was Newton’s research that led Benjamin Robbins to invent the ballistic pendulum in 1740 (the first device to measure bullet velocity).

There is no mystery here — the truth has been documented time and again. So how is it that we still don’t get it? One word: Hollywood.

Ever since Dirty Harry came along with his .44 Magnum hand-cannon, when someone gets shot in the movies or on TV (and don’t forget video games) two things happen: 1) the victim is thrown back convulsively, through windows, off balconies, etc. and 2) there will immediately emerge a geyser of blood spewing forth from the wound, leaving no doubt that this person has been shot, and pinpointing exactly where the bullet has struck.
Many firearm and shooting magazines picked up on the idea as well, discussing and propagating the pseudo-scientific idea of handgun “knockdown power” and “one shot stopping power.”

The Truth

The Federal Bureau of Investigation Firearms Training Unit published a concise yet insightful report that speaks directly to this issue of firearm wounding ballistics and the misconceptions that have surrounded this area.
These so called [knockdown power] studies are further promoted as being somehow better and more valid than the work being done by trained researchers, surgeons and forensic labs. They disparage laboratory stuff, claiming that the “street” is the real laboratory and their collection of results from the street is the real measure of caliber effectiveness, as interpreted by them, of course. Yet their data from the street is collected haphazardly, lacking scientific method and controls, with no noticeable attempt to verify the less than reliable accounts of the participants with actual investigative or forensic reports. Cases are subjectively selected (how many are not included because they do not fit the assumptions made?). The numbers of cases cited are statistically meaningless, and the underlying assumptions upon which the collection of information and its interpretation are based are themselves based on myths such as knockdown power, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or the temporary cavity methodology of flawed work such as RII. (1)

The truth is, the whole idea of handgun knockdown power is a myth. It simply doesn’t work that way. The FBI report further clarifies:
A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously. (2)

The report cites previous studies that have calculated bullet velocities and impact power, concluding that the “stopping power” of a 9mm bullet at muzzle velocity is equal to a one-pound weight being dropped from the height of six feet. A .45 ACP (45 auto) bullet impact would equal that same object dropped from 11.4 feet. That is a far cry from what Hollywood would have us believe, and actually flies in the face of what even many in law enforcement have come to mistakenly believe.

The FBI report also emphasizes that unless the bullet destroys or damages the central nervous system (i.e., brain or upper spinal cord), incapacitation of the subject can take a long time, seemingly longer if one is engaged in a firefight.

Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso, causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. (3)
More often than not, an officer firing at a suspect will not immediately know if he or she has even struck the target. The physics are such that the body will rarely involuntarily move or jerk, and usually there is no noticeable spewing of blood or surface tearing of tissue. Often there is no blood whatsoever. (4) That is why military surgeons and emergency room physicians take great time and pains to carefully examine gunshot victims for any additional small holes. Often that is the only indication the person has been shot.

Personal Experience

But let’s be real here. I can cite numerous additional academic and scientific sources that support this article, but I know how cops think. We’re not always the most trustful of academics, especially when it comes to our street survival. So let me add my own personal experience to the data. Please allow me to go beyond the cold facts and share with you why I know what I’m telling you is the truth.

In the mid-1980s I was involved in my first shooting as a police officer. But to give the story context, I must go back to 1982 when I graduated from the Long Beach Police Academy. The first thing I was told by experienced training officers I trusted and looked up to, was to “get rid of that pea-shooter 38 they issued you and buy a real gun with some knockdown power!” Although we were issued .38 caliber revolvers, we were authorized to carry a number of different caliber weapons on duty, the largest of which was the 45 Long Colt.

The .45 Long Colt round next to the diminutive 9 millimeter.

Imagine my surprise when I was confronted by a suspect armed with a shotgun in a dark alley and my Long Colt didn’t live up to its billing. I fired five rounds at the suspect. It wasn’t until I fired my last shot — intentionally aimed at his head — that he went down. I can’t begin to relate to you the surprise and horror I felt when there was absolutely no outward indication I was hitting my target. It was the kind of situation cops have nightmares about.
What actually happened? I fired five rounds at a distance of about twelve feet. The first one missed completely. The second struck his upper leg and broke his femur. The third struck him in the shoulder/chest. The fourth round hit him dead center—in the heart. And of course, the fifth was a headshot. Three of the five rounds created fatal wounds, though only one had immediate results.

Needless to say, I was pretty shaken by the whole thing. Not by the morality of what I’d done; the suspect had already fired at a bystander and taken a hostage earlier. He was also high on PCP. That wasn’t my inner struggle. What shook me was how unprepared I felt; how totally off guard I was taken by what occurred. No one ever told me it would be like that. The reality was contrary to everything I thought I knew about deadly force.
That experience more than any research or study is the reason is why I am writing this article. Police officers risk getting into shootings every day; we need to know the dynamics of how a shooting incident may unfold. It will affect our equipment, tactics, and most important, our mindset. We need to know that rarely will one shot incapacitate an assailant. We further need to be able to explain this when our fellow officers are involved in shootings where multiple shots are fired. The public honestly believes it’s like the movies. Why would we ever need to fire twenty or thirty rounds to subdue an armed suspect? Problem is we can’t teach it or explain it until we understand it ourselves. (5)

Footnotes:
1. Patrick, Urey W., Federal Bureau of Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,” p.13. (1989).
2. Ibid., p.9.
3. Ibid., p. 8.
4. Newgard, Ken, MD, “The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation” (1992).
5. For you visual learners still unconvinced, I highly recommend viewing the Discovery Channel MythBusters segment, “Blown Away,” (Brown Note Episode, Second Season), where the knockdown power myth is visually and scientifically debunked once and for all.
 

dustin

UAIOE
my stance on handgun "knockdown power": use the largest and fastest moving round you can shoot quickly and accurately, that does not have a track record of over penetration.

my choice is 9mm. but that could be because ive practiced the most with it.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
my stance on handgun "knockdown power": use the largest and fastest moving round you can shoot quickly and accurately, that does not have a track record of over penetration.

my choice is 9mm. but that could be because ive practiced the most with it.

Fighting men had to give up their. 45 sidearms for one women and pilots could handle.

What do you fly? :buddies:
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
my stance on handgun "knockdown power": use the largest and fastest moving round you can shoot quickly and accurately, that does not have a track record of over penetration.

my choice is 9mm. but that could be because ive practiced the most with it.

That is the right answer, despite what people might say, 9mm, especially with today's bullet technology is more than cabable and good hits from a 9 beat misses out of a .45 or .40 anyday.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Think about the amount of force it would take me to push that same metal plate over with my fingers to equal the rapidness of it going over has fast as it did with that 44 mag round hitting it. Not very much. And if I were to come push you with my fingers with that same force you'd probably just think I was trying to get fresh, not knock you down.

You take that amount of force, I hit you with it, that amount of force, with my finger, you shoot me with a .44; who is going to be less happier?

There is, demonstrably, more going on with those plates between ANY 9mm or .45 round and a .44 magnum. There just is. More powder, the source of energy is one major, obvious difference.

Now, when I think of knock down power I am not thinking of people getting shot and being blown across the room or even being literally 'knocked' down. As I mentioned, maybe you break my shoulder with a .45 where the 9 may have 'just' gone through. Maybe the concusion in my chest cavity interupts my heart beat for an instant with a .44 mag over a .38. There IS more stuff happening with a .44 mag vs. a smaller round with less propellent being used. Has to be.

As a practical matter, we are talking about putting an enemy out of action. If I've got one shot in an emergency, close quarters, I'd rather 9 over .22, 45 over 9, 44 mag over 45, shotgun over any of them.

"Knock down", 'impact', 'energy transfer', maybe there is a better word and yes, a hit with less is better than a miss with more but, a hit with more is better than a hit with less.

:buddies:
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
Alright

YouTube - body armor

one last shot then I guess the old war stories will have to prevail for a couple of you over all the evidence I have provided.

I know what it's like trying to hang on to something you believed to be true for so many years but..... like all kids one day must realize also. Santa is not real!
 

Pushrod

Patriot
I don't believe in knock-down power so much, but I do believe in wound channel size and depth of penetration, both of which a larger round will increase. This increases your chances of an earlier take-down of the bad guy with either a CNS or circulatory hit.
 

Vince

......
Myth busters also busted the myth of knock down power twice in 2005. The information is out there, all over the internet from reliable resources on why it is not a valid theory.
Saw one last night on Mythbusters. They had a 9mm, .357 and a .45 shooting through a car door into phone books placed in the door. They wanted to see how many phone books it would take to bullet proof the car. Even with 2 phone books the 9mm, .357 and .45 would penetrate the door, but wouldn't make it through the phone books. After that a 12 ga with a slug went through the door and phone books. Then a rifle was tried, can't remember what it was, but it went through the door and books also. Interesting show. They tried a lot of variations of phone books. They also shot through the window glass with phone books in front and on the other side of the glass. With the books on the inside, the bullet went through the glass, but didn't penetrate through the phone books. Put the books on the outside and the bullet would go through the books first and through the glass. The glass has some effect on the bullet if the bullet hits it first.
 
Last edited:

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
I don't believe in knock-down power so much, but I do believe in wound channel size and depth of penetration, both of which a larger round will increase. This increases your chances of an earlier take-down of the bad guy with either a CNS or circulatory hit.

Agreed for the most part, but a larger round will not always increase depth penetration, it has to be the correct balance of weight and speed.Bigger rounds move slower, in general, if they get too slow they won't penetrate enough. I saw an experiment using a .45 caliber shooting gelatin with handloads. The standard 230 gr. weight penetrates good at the typical speeds it accomplishes out of most handguns. Shoot it out of a really short barreled gun or start increasing the weight to slow the round down into the 800 fps range and lower and it will not penetrate to the needed depths for reliable wounds.
 
Last edited:

itsbob

I bowl overhand
YouTube - body armor

one last shot then I guess the old war stories will have to prevail for a couple of you over all the evidence I have provided.

I know what it's like trying to hang on to something you believed to be true for so many years but..... like all kids one day must realize also. Santa is not real!

There is some testing done by the vest manufacturer that really shows the difference between say a 9 and a 45.

They draped their vest over a mannequin made out of clay and shot it first with a single 9 mm round took off the vest to show the dent left in the clay, then shot it with a .45 round and took off the vest to show the cave left in the clay.. then repeated the same with 3 shots from each.

I believe this experiment really showed the difference between the two. Even with a vest on, the 9 probably wouldn't have slowed an attacker down, the .45, if nothing else, you would have known you took a hit, and probably lost a few ribs in the process.

Neither round ever penetrated the vest, so killing power was nil, but getting hit by the .45 you weren't getting away unscathed.
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
Was explained in the "myth of energy transfer" article I posted earlier. Temporary cavity is not a factor in the wound process at handgun round speeds.

When soft body armor is tested to meet National Institute of Justice (NIJ) certification, a single armor panel is fitted against a large block of very stiff oil-based roma-plastilina modeling clay. When high energy projectiles, such as Magnum handgun bullets or shotgun slugs, are shot into the armor, the resulting collision produces a deep depression in the clay behind the armor (provided the armor stopped the bullet). This dent (referred to as "backface deformation" by the NIJ) is representative of the temporary cavity produced in the human torso by the non-penetrating projectile. However, because of the stiffness of the clay, the dent is not as deep as the temporary cavity dent produced in the human body.

Soft armor appears to actually provide better protection when it's worn on a human body than when it's backed by clay during certification testing. The apparent reason is because the human body's greater flexibility and resilience, which acts as a better shock absorber than stiff modeling clay. This shock absorbing effect decreases the stress on the armor, which in turn increases its effectiveness. Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) is a good example of the body's resilient shock absorbing quality.

And in the video the dude sure seemed unscathed after getting shot by the .308 round, you can't tell me that the .308 would not of put a much larger indention in clay than a .45?? Seems clay really isn't a good indicator on how a human body will react when shot.
 
Last edited:

Bigpops92

Active Member
That is the right answer, despite what people might say, 9mm, especially with today's bullet technology is more than cabable and good hits from a 9 beat misses out of a .45 or .40 anyday.

Interesting conversation you guys have going on here. I would guess, just me talking, the average person with average practice time would be better served with a 9mm for home protection.

"Knockdown power", "energy dispersal", etc aside...the average person can't kill/wound what they cant hit! Especially on a follow up shot.

Given a home invasion scenerio, at night, intruder coming down the hallway, a person with minimal practice will simply put several holes in a wall with a 45. That is if they can manage the recoil and not limp wrist the gun creating a stove pipe condition.

A 9mm is a little easier to shoot, especially on a follow up shot.

Just my $.02.
 

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
Interesting conversation you guys have going on here. I would guess, just me talking, the average person with average practice time would be better served with a 9mm for home protection.

"Knockdown power", "energy dispersal", etc aside...the average person can't kill/wound what they cant hit! Especially on a follow up shot.

Given a home invasion scenerio, at night, intruder coming down the hallway, a person with minimal practice will simply put several holes in a wall with a 45. That is if they can manage the recoil and not limp wrist the gun creating a stove pipe condition.

A 9mm is a little easier to shoot, especially on a follow up shot.

Just my $.02.

Yup, and I know you are a shooter.

Have you checked this video out? At the end where he fires the multiple rounds with cadence is a pretty good illustration of recoil managment through a good grip.

YouTube - Travis Haley on Handgun Grip
 
Top