Standing up for our Faith

[PsyOps]

I see what you're saying but how is that any different than what Jesus said?
"telling someone they're going to hell if they don't believe" is exactly what He did at times and is the truth. It's somewhat harsh but it's still the truth. Why would anyone not use that if it applies? I would, if the "love & forgiveness" method didn't work. He made it clear that unbelievers will not enter the kingdom of Heaven and told them lots about hell. John 8 from verse 12 to the end is one example.
I know a few people that have often told me that they are scared to death of the thought of going to hell. They don't talk much about God's love (that I conveyed to them) so, if being scared of hell helps them come to Christ, I'm all for it. I don't know where people get the notion that Christians always have to be soft and passive.:shrug: When Jesus returns, we will all see a side of Him that we've never seen and it won't be pretty this time.
And I understand about the rich young ruler but he walked away, not Jesus. If someone walks away from me in a conversation or on this forum, I don't go chasing him either but I will tell people what awaits them (unlike Oprah's lie about "many ways to Heaven").

When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel he told them: “Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet.” He didn’t say “If they don’t listen to you tell them they are going to hell”. He also told them “Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.” The Christian faith has a long history of FORCING their beliefs on others through oppressive behavior and unforgiving words. How many might have been lost during the Crusades or during the Inquisitions; burning people at the stake, being accused of having the devil in them or being a witch? I’ve been in Churches that their main focus is tell how everyone is going to hell unless I spoke in tongues or exercised some other Pentecostal “gift”. Their message isn’t one of God’s love; but rather a message of God’s wrath. We have to get out of this line of practice. It’s not Christ-like. Those things have their place in the Church, but not rammed down our throats.

I’m not suggesting you don’t tell people about the consequences of not believing; I’m just saying that the Christian faith needs to get back on a track of preaching a message of love and salvation first. This isn’t happening.

 

[ItalianScallion]

When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the Gospel he told them: “Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet.” He didn’t say “If they don’t listen to you tell them they are going to hell”. He also told them “Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.” The Christian faith has a long history of FORCING their beliefs on others through oppressive behavior and unforgiving words. How many might have been lost during the Crusades or during the Inquisitions; burning people at the stake, being accused of having the devil in them or being a witch? I’ve been in Churches that their main focus is tell how everyone is going to hell unless I spoke in tongues or exercised some other Pentecostal “gift”. Their message isn’t one of God’s love; but rather a message of God’s wrath. We have to get out of this line of practice. It’s not Christ-like. Those things have their place in the Church, but not rammed down our throats.

I’m not suggesting you don’t tell people about the consequences of not believing; I’m just saying that the Christian faith needs to get back on a track of preaching a message of love and salvation first. This isn’t happening.

First off, no one was "lost" during the Crusades or Inquisitions. You apparently don't understand the power of God. No one destined for salvation will ever be lost. If they were not saved when they were killed, they weren't going to Heaven in the first place.
You can't compare churches to Jesus. Churches are flawed. The Bible does NOT teach that speaking in tongues is a necessity for salvation. You should have just left and been done with them.
Finally, it seems you've chosen to ignore the other verses. If those you quoted were the only ones in the Bible you'd be right, but they''re not.
Are you reading the Bible with rose colored glasses on? You can't ignore the "bad" verses and only read the "feel good" ones. Many churches do that so their membership will grow. And I do agree that the message of love should always be first.
I see lots of places where Jesus spoke of people's destruction in hell if you're interested:
Matthew 7v13, 14, 21-23, Matthew 8v12, Matthew 13v30, Matthew 18v2-9, Matthew 21v33-45, Matthew 22v13, Matthew 23, Matthew 24v51, Matthew 25v41, 46.
Luke 11v47-52, Luke 12v5, 20, 47, Luke 14v16-24, Luke 16v19-31, Luke 19v20-27, Luke 20v1-19.
John 5v14, 37-47, John 8v39-47.

 

[msqtech]

way to present testimony

only about 40% of communication is words.
We have our actions to model and the tone and inflection of the words we use do much more to communicate our beliefs than just the meaning of the text.

In this season we need just remember that God so loved the world that he gave us his only son so that we might have ever lasting life!

Believe in Easter as the Resurrection and presentation of this gift.

I try everyday to have a joyful response to this gift and model it to my community.

 

[libby]

No one destined for salvation will ever be lost.

So we do not have free will? This will surely open another can of worms, but how do you reconcile free will with predestination?
If God has determined your path, and you cannot lose it, then He has also determined the path for the damned. God does not will that anyone perish. Can you please explain this theology?

 

[Zguy28]

Obviously I haven’t been clear. The term condemn that I am using is to condemn someone to eternal damnation. In other words telling someone they are going to hell if they don’t believe.

When Jesus was crucified he said “Forgive them father, for they know not what they do”. Although Christ condemned the act of crucifying him, he forgave them because they were completely ignorant of the spiritual implications of the act. Jesus also said: “… I’ve come not to condemn the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47). He did say that we condemn ourselves by not accepting Him and, by our own choice, subject ourselves to God’s judgment.

I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t use the Bible to convey the message. I’m just not one to throw it in someone’s face while telling them they are going to hell if they don’t believe in it. When the rich man approached Jesus and asked how to get into heaven Jesus gave him His answer. When the rich man rejected it, Jesus didn’t go chasing him down, with a more stern tone. He simply said to others how hard it is for a rich man to enter into heaven and left it at that.

DO you think it is proper to use this passage in preaching the Gospel?

John 3:16-18

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[Zguy28]

So we do not have free will? This will surely open another can of worms, but how do you reconcile free will with predestination?
If God has determined your path, and you cannot lose it, then He has also determined the path for the damned. God does not will that anyone perish. Can you please explain this theology?

Moderate Calvinism

Some people also call this a form of Molinism.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I call to mind the scripture:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

No matter what we think we know, we only know what is revealed and that only through the imperfection of human understanding. These are my thoughts and understanding at this point in my journey with God.

Show love and proclaim salvation through Jesus. Live, not act, as though God is living within you, because, if you are a Christian, He is. When you become a Christian you become the temple of the Holy Spirit. Live your faith.

Admonish other Christians out of love. Proclaim the gospel to non believers out of love. Do nothing out of vengeance or spitefulness. Realize that each Christian is where they are in their personal relationship with God and it is not up to us to make them into out image but God is conforming them to His image just as He is conforming us. Realize age has nothing to do with spiritual maturity. Jesus was 12 when He was instructing the elders in the temple. We can all learn from each other. Encourage each other with not only words but action.

No one was ever argued into believing; I know; I used to try. Present the case for the gospel and let the Holy Spirit work. You may never see the results of someone coming to salvation. You sow the seed in love. Someone else may have the job of watering it, and even someone else may have the job of harvesting, leading the person to acceptance of Jesus.

Never shy away from sharing your faith and admitting you are a Christian, a follower of Christ Jesus, the son of God.

And these are just my own understanding. Your understanding may be different. But if we do all in love for others, then God can even use our mistakes.

 

[citizen_fear]

But Jesus was God, he has that power to condemn, where does your power come from?

Jesus is not God......He is the son of God, seated at the right hand of the father.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Jesus is not God......He is the son of God, seated at the right hand of the father.

Uh ...

John 14:7-15

7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

[citizen_fear]

Wasnt goingto bother getting into the debate, some people think the Immaculate Conception is Mary give birth as a Virgin. But the gist of my question remains unchanged.

No debate. So they are one in the same but Jesus is the son of God? So when Jesus questions God, he is talking to himself in the third person? I am trying to understand.

 

[citizen_fear]

He's God, he's his own son as well as father and God himself.

You mean he is everything,..Think I would go crazy trying to understand or figure it out.....

 

[PsyOps]

No debate. So they are one in the same but Jesus is the son of God? So when Jesus questions God, he is talking to himself in the third person? I am trying to understand.

I sort of think about it this way... An atom is made up of 3 parts: electrons neutrons and protons. Each part has it's equal purpose. I happen to think the terminology Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was used to help us understand each part’s purpose rather than some sort of hierarchy (one more powerful than the other). God (a spiritual being) made man (a physical being). He knows we live in the physical and needed a physical depiction of Him to put his plan for salvation into motion. Of course even there we have a hard time understanding it.

 

[twinoaks207]

Food for thought:

1. Jesus was a teacher who taught in parables (look not at the exact words but at the "moral of the story").
2. The bible (or other holy book) is oral tradition written down. Every society throughout time has had an "oral tradition" that was used to teach and communicate the society's rules and history. As it was "oral" it changed a bit with each person telling it. Early books were handwritten individually which meant that there may have been changes with each "writer". They were written in different languages and then translated -- again, changes with each translation.
3. All civilized groups need a method of communicating group "rules" and "words to live by".
4. "Political" groups in power will manipulate spoken and written word to make it conform to what they see is the "need".

Isn't all of this just a way of helping us learn how to live with each other in love and harmony and how to not hurt each other? Arguing over whose "way" is "right" has only caused much pain and suffering over the centuries and shows no sign of stopping. All we were meant to learn is love. Everything good flows from that and everything bad comes from when we don't practice love. God's Word is simple: love.

 

[toppick08]

Food for thought:

1. Jesus was a teacher who taught in parables (look not at the exact words but at the "moral of the story").
2. The bible (or other holy book) is oral tradition written down. Every society throughout time has had an "oral tradition" that was used to teach and communicate the society's rules and history. As it was "oral" it changed a bit with each person telling it. Early books were handwritten individually which meant that there may have been changes with each "writer". They were written in different languages and then translated -- again, changes with each translation.
3. All civilized groups need a method of communicating group "rules" and "words to live by".
4. "Political" groups in power will manipulate spoken and written word to make it conform to what they see is the "need".

Isn't all of this just a way of helping us learn how to live with each other in love and harmony and how to not hurt each other? Arguing over whose "way" is "right" has only caused much pain and suffering over the centuries and shows no sign of stopping. All we were meant to learn is love. Everything good flows from that and everything bad comes from when we don't practice love. God's Word is simple: love.

 

[ItalianScallion]

So we do not have free will? This will surely open another can of worms, but how do you reconcile free will with predestination?
If God has determined your path, and you cannot lose it, then He has also determined the path for the damned. God does not will that anyone perish. Can you please explain this theology?

How can you keep confusing the 2???
Libby, why do you keep bringing this up after I've explained it to you many times before? Your church teaches salvation by working for it and working to keep it. Christianity doesn't.
First off, God knows everything! Psalm 94 v11, Psalm 139 v4 & John 16 v30. He knew who would CHOOSE to be saved and who wouldn't before anything was ever created. To those who would choose salvation, He coordinater their lives so that nothing would happen to prevent it. To those who would REFUSE salvation, He didn't have to, even though some things in their lives are.
Predestination simply means that God used whatever was going to happen in my life to work for the benefit of His plan. It doesn't mean that I am forced to do anything. I can still do what I want. Predestination is not an evil form of mind control. The difference, now, is that I WANT to do things that please Him. This is called a change of heart. I used to want to be the drunken life of the party and I was for 17 years. Now I've grown out of it because I'm saved.
It's like me dating a bunch of women and having the time of my life while single. Then I find one who I want to settle down with and so I give up my entire "playboy" lifestyle for her. That's called committment but it's a choice I made out of love. No one forced me.

But Jesus was God, he has that power to condemn, where does your power come from?

His words.

Jesus is not God......He is the son of God, seated at the right hand of the father.

Extremely wrong! He is 100% God and 100% man. He had 2 natures just as we all do. One is human and one is Divine (Our other nature is spiritual too but not Divine). This is why He could speak of God, on one hand, as His equal and, on the other hand, as His superior.

Food for thought:
[*]The bible (or other holy book) is oral tradition written down.
As it was "oral" it changed a bit with each person telling it. Early books were handwritten individually which meant that there may have been changes with each "writer". They were written in different languages and then translated -- again, changes with each translation.
Arguing over whose "way" is "right" has only caused much pain and suffering over the centuries and shows no sign of stopping. God's Word is simple: love.

The Bible is God's Word's spoken to men who wrote it down for later generations to follow. Very little has changed from the original writings, otherwise we'd have NO basis for absolute truth. God is too powerful to let His words change meaning regardless of time and regardless of language differences. The dead sea scrolls proved that and so do the almost 6,000 copies of the Scriptures. No other book in all of humanity can compare to or disprove the Bible.
As long as the Devil has a say on this earth, there will be counterfit gospels and teachings. There is only one truth and one God. We HAVE to argue over "whose way is right" or you people will (already have) fall for any teaching that comes down the pike.

 

[pixiegirl]

I see what you're saying but how is that any different than what Jesus said?
"telling someone they're going to hell if they don't believe" is exactly what He did at times and is the truth. It's somewhat harsh but it's still the truth. Why would anyone not use that if it applies? I would, if the "love & forgiveness" method didn't work. He made it clear that unbelievers will not enter the kingdom of Heaven and told them lots about hell. John 8 from verse 12 to the end is one example.
I know a few people that have often told me that they are scared to death of the thought of going to hell. They don't talk much about God's love (that I conveyed to them) so, if being scared of hell helps them come to Christ, I'm all for it. I don't know where people get the notion that Christians always have to be soft and passive.:shrug: When Jesus returns, we will all see a side of Him that we've never seen and it won't be pretty this time.
And I understand about the rich young ruler but he walked away, not Jesus. If someone walks away from me in a conversation or on this forum, I don't go chasing him either but I will tell people what awaits them (unlike Oprah's lie about "many ways to Heaven").

I didn't get any further than this before I had to interject.... News Flash.... You're not Jesus dude so why the hell would you even try to preach like him or think that you have the authority to tell people they're going to hell? PEOPLE are what turn other people away from belief of that I am sure. Why the hell anyone wants to be part of some culture that you can never be good enough for is beyond me. And before you point fingers and try to accuse me of being a hell bound heathen let me say that I absolutely believe in God and have plenty of faith. If at any time anyone wants to talk to me about it I talk to them openly and from the heart, my heart; not some book of half fairy tales and years of what God's other followers have shoved down my throat.

 

[twinoaks207]

I didn't get any further than this before I had to interject.... News Flash.... You're not Jesus dude so why the hell would you even try to preach like him or think that you have the authority to tell people they're going to hell? PEOPLE are what turn other people away from belief of that I am sure. Why the hell anyone wants to be part of some culture that you can never be good enough for is beyond me. And before you point fingers and try to accuse me of being a hell bound heathen let me say that I absolutely believe in God and have plenty of faith. If at any time anyone wants to talk to me about it I talk to them openly and from the heart, my heart; not some book of half fairy tales and years of what God's other followers have shoved down my throat.

YOU see! Just remember that "there are none so blind as those who will not see"...

 

[ItalianScallion]

I didn't get any further than this before I had to interject.... News Flash.... You're not Jesus dude so why the hell would you even try to preach like him or think that you have the authority to tell people they're going to hell? PEOPLE are what turn other people away from belief of that I am sure. Why the hell anyone wants to be part of some culture that you can never be good enough for is beyond me. And before you point fingers and try to accuse me of being a hell bound heathen let me say that I absolutely believe in God and have plenty of faith. If at any time anyone wants to talk to me about it I talk to them openly and from the heart, my heart; not some book of half fairy tales and years of what God's other followers have shoved down my throat.

Hey Pixie! How long you been this upset? Don't let Oprah deceive you with her many ways to Heaven; there's only one way according to the "book of fairy tales" and that's what I'm speaking about.
2A said it very well: "no one was ever argued into believing". I'm not forcing anyone into believing but I will present the truth passionately my dear lady because it IS a matter of life & death.
Of course I'm not Jesus; never was, never will be but He did leave me (and others) here to speak the good news until He gets back. He even told me that I will do more things than He did. John 14 v12.
Matthew 16 v19 and 18 v18-19 gives me the right to "declare" whether someone has the right path to Heaven or not. This also means that we can say, with godly authority, the condition of a person's heart by what they believe.
So, let's "talk from your heart".
Tell me, what is your faith based on if not the "book of fairy tales"??
Explain to me (please), in a detailed description, who your God is, when you became saved and how you'll get to Heaven. I'm being very serious here. I'm not saying anything against what you believe (at this point) so be honest. What concerns me is that you said: "not some book of half fairy tales and years of what God's other followers have shoved down my throat".
This is what I'd ask anyone who claims to "absolutely believe in God and have plenty of faith".
Matthew 7 v21-23.

 

[pixiegirl]

Hey Pixie! How long you been this upset? Don't let Oprah deceive you with her many ways to Heaven; there's only one way according to the "book of fairy tales" and that's what I'm speaking about.
2A said it very well: "no one was ever argued into believing". I'm not forcing anyone into believing but I will present the truth passionately my dear lady because it IS a matter of life & death.
Of course I'm not Jesus; never was, never will be but He did leave me (and others) here to speak the good news until He gets back. He even told me that I will do more things than He did. John 14 v12.
Matthew 16 v19 and 18 v18-19 gives me the right to "declare" whether someone has the right path to Heaven or not. This also means that we can say, with godly authority, the condition of a person's heart by what they believe.
So, let's "talk from your heart".
Tell me, what is your faith based on if not the "book of fairy tales"??
Explain to me (please), in a detailed description, who your God is, when you became saved and how you'll get to Heaven. I'm being very serious here. I'm not saying anything against what you believe (at this point) so be honest. What concerns me is that you said: "not some book of half fairy tales and years of what God's other followers have shoved down my throat".
This is what I'd ask anyone who claims to "absolutely believe in God and have plenty of faith".
Matthew 7 v21-23.

I'm not angry at all dude, quite the contrary. I'm secure enough in myself and my own personal faith that I don't have to damn others that don't see things the way I do. Good luck with your quest to change the world, it's not going to happen and you'll probably do more harm than good. I've never watched Oprah by the way.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I'm not angry at all dude, quite the contrary. I'm secure enough in myself and my own personal faith that I don't have to damn others that don't see things the way I do. Good luck with your quest to change the world, it's not going to happen and you'll probably do more harm than good. I've never watched Oprah by the way.

Thanks for answering all my questions with one reply.