The Bathroom 'Freedom Fighters'

[vraiblonde]

Interesting fact about Brandon Teena:

You remember, the tran girl posing as a guy who got killed by some real guys?

The media made it out to seem that Brandon/Tina was targeted specifically because of his/her gender whatever. That is only true on some level. The real story is that Brandon was hanging with some nasty characters - drugs, crime, etc. S/he hooked up with this girl - that the movie made out to be this sensitive deep redneck chick, when in fact she was just a redneck chick who liked rough trade - and when s/he was outed, these guys not only killed Brandon, but killed his/her two friends as well. But they're not sexually confused and can't be exploited for agenda purposes, so nobody gives a damn about them.

FACT: in the early 90s in Lincoln, NE there was a decent size gay/tran population, so to pretend that Brandon was this lone little person against everybody is bull####. To try to paint Lincoln as some bohunk redneck small town is pure ignorance, and not even remotely close to the truth.

FACT: Brandon chose to go off to hicksville with these rough criminal druggies. S/he'd have been better off in Lincoln where being outside the norm wasn't particularly noteworthy.

FACT: these guys were killers, pure and simple. If Brandon wasn't killed for being tran, s/he'd have most likely been killed for some other reason. The Brandon Teena murder was instrumental in the gov enacting hate crime legislation. The other two people who were killed...meh...who gives a damn about them, right? Probably wasn't hate like it was with the tran chick.

A lot of what we're fed by the media is bull####, but we eat it anyway.

 

[Tilted]

...

A lot of what we're fed by the media is bull####, but we eat it anyway.

No doubt.

I'd say that we don't just eat it though, we in effect order it. Different people have different preparations of it that they really like and really don't like, but as a category and overall it's a pretty popular menu item.

 

[TheLibertonian]

You’re not going to convince me there is any comparison to a person who has no choice in who they are (a black person) to someone who is making a choice not to be what they are (homosexuals/transgender).

Now, don’t get me wrong on this… I want everyone to have equal rights. I have no desire to tell gays or trans they shouldn’t have their lifestyle. I don’t believe using whatever public facilities you want is a right. My disagreement with their lifestyle ends with dictating to them that they don’t belong in this world. But when their ‘rights’ trump mine; when how they FEEL about things trumps how I feel about it, something is wrong with this. Your comfort as a transgendered woman (feeling like a man) to use the men’s shower should not trump my discomfort with you undressing in a men’s locker room. This gets exponentially complicated when it comes to hormonally enraged teens sharing locker rooms like this.

My getting upset about this (which I’m not; I’m simply voicing some concerns about how I expect it to be received), is irrelevant. I do not expect this to go over well. I expect most people – particularly women – will be hugely uncomfortable with a male taking off his dress in a lady’s shower, revealing he is indeed a male. You can call these people bigots or whatever, but don’t expect it to be well-received.

But that discomfort is also culturally conditioned. Because if it was a "natural" condition, then it would have been an issue throughout history; it hasn't been. The romans and the greeks both bathed together naked. The native Americans often went in a state of undress when it was hot out. The barbarian tribes of the ancient past were described often as going naked.

I'm not taking issue with your feelings on it, what I'm taking issue with is the naturalist argument, that things are the way they are because of nature.

I also have issue with your stark declaration that homosexuality/transgenderism is purely a choice. I'm not in the camp of the biologist on this one, but nor am I in the camp of the sociologist; throughout history there have been instances cultures that had "homosexuality" as the preferred relationship method. From everything I've seen, and some reports from psychologist I've read, and biologist, it's a hybrid. For some people, it is a choice. For others, it's not.

I remember hearing an NPR report on a scientist who was essentially attacked by authoritarian-leftist for his publishing. It's not new, it's not unique to the left. Ten years ago sociologist in Sweden were convinced that homosexuality was purely a matter of choice.

 

[vraiblonde]

or if they were ogling me (which any lesbian is now currently able to do because she's using the same shower).

BZZZT! Wrong. I have it on good authority that lesbians have the same reaction to nekkid women that hetero women have. Not, "Hmmm..." but, "She looks amazing. I wish I had breasts like that. How does she keep her thighs so thin?" or "Ye gods, woman, put down the Ho Hos."

Women don't tend toward ogling, as a general rule. Men do - it's just part of their biology and they can't help it.

 

[This_person]

...throughout history there have been instances cultures that had "homosexuality" as the preferred relationship method.

Got to call BS on this. Maybe "fully accepted", but certainly not "preferred". That culture would last about one generation, and never make history books.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that homosexuality is most likely genetics rather than environment/choice. I simply cannot believe the 2.5% of the population were ever the "preferred" relationship method. There is a huge difference between "accepted" and "preferred". "Preferred" implies choice, and that social pressure was put upon people to be homosexual who were not. I do not believe that was ever a thing.

 

[This_person]

...
Why was someone born with a penis when in every other aspect they are female? :shrug:

...
And you may not think so, but while we're talking about nature, your penis is just an organ that allows urine to escape your body and to procreate with. It doesn't make you who you are. It didn't make you play with trucks when you were a kid and it didn't make you prefer a woman for sex instead of a man. You are more than the sum parts of your genitals.

In my opinion, you are conflating actions/desires with anatomy. I may want to be as strong as Ahnold in his heyday, I may believe deep in my heart that I am, but I'm actually not and I'll hurt myself if I live that way. I may want to be a woman, and dress like a woman, and wear make-up like a woman, but I am not a woman, so if I try to do the things only women can do, I will fail. Why is that? Is it because tampon manufacturers are unfair and didn't make tampons to fit penises? No, it's because I have a penis, not a vagina. My wants, thoughts, desires, beliefs really don't matter one iota on either of these things - I have a penis, therefore I am male. As much as I may identify as a female, I am a male.

***disclaimer - I am not a cross-dresser, nor do I identify as a female. This is all hypothetical word-play, not actual representation of myself. Shouldn't need to say that, but there are those on here who make such a declaration a requirement***

 

[TheLibertonian]

Got to call BS on this. Maybe "fully accepted", but certainly not "preferred". That culture would last about one generation, and never make history books.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that homosexuality is most likely genetics rather than environment/choice. I simply cannot believe the 2.5% of the population were ever the "preferred" relationship method. There is a huge difference between "accepted" and "preferred". "Preferred" implies choice, and that social pressure was put upon people to be homosexual who were not. I do not believe that was ever a thing.

The greeks treated man-love as being purer, and having children as a necessary evil that had to be done with women.

 

[PsyOps]

But that discomfort is also culturally conditioned.

Tell me... what creates the discomfort transgenders feel when they can't use the facilities of their choice?

 

[PsyOps]

Because if it was a "natural" condition, then it would have been an issue throughout history; it hasn't been.

This is demonstrably false. Can you explain why – a LOOOOONNNNGGGG time ago – humans decided there should be separate restrooms and locker rooms/showers based strictly on defined genders? For thousands of years there have been separate clothes. Go into any clothing store and there is a men’s department and a women’s department. There is no transgender department. You have men dressing up like women, and women dressing up like men; but still those defined genders are plainly clear – male and female. Even if a man decided to dress in women’s clothes, they are still called ‘women’s clothes’. And that man dressing like a woman does not make him a woman (the old adage “put lipstick on a pig, and it’s still a pig”).

 

[TheLibertonian]

This is demonstrably false. Can you explain why – a LOOOOONNNNGGGG time ago – humans decided there should be separate restrooms and locker rooms/showers based strictly on defined genders? For thousands of years there have been separate clothes. Go into any clothing store and there is a men’s department and a women’s department. There is no transgender department. You have men dressing up like women, and women dressing up like men; but still those defined genders are plainly clear – male and female. Even if a man decided to dress in women’s clothes, they are still called ‘women’s clothes’. And that man dressing like a woman does not make him a woman (the old adage “put lipstick on a pig, and it’s still a pig”).

Except for the whole "men and women bathing together" thing. You really have no desire to learn a thing so you're just going to ignore any other evidence I present you. Go research sexuality in the ancient world, and in the middle ages, and clothing.

"A long time ago" to you seems to be "within the last one hundred and fifty years" for most of what you're talking about.

 

[Tilted]

Tell me... what creates the discomfort transgenders feel when they can't use the facilities of their choice?

I don't have a reliable sense for what matters most to most transgendered. But I strongly suspect that for some of them it comes from people looking at them strangely or challenging them when they go into bathrooms that don't fit their appearance. It comes, e.g., from your hypothetical father perhaps saying (to a biological female that looks and is dressed like a man) - Dude, WTF are you doing going into the ladies room? Because that father might not know the difference between a biological man going in the women's bathroom and a transgender man (i.e. a biological woman) doing so.

I can't really relate, but I suspect that I would feel pretty uncomfortable if I were a biological woman that lived and dressed as a man any time I needed to go into a women's bathroom. I think I'd be hoping that no one noticed me and would avoid using public bathrooms whenever I could. I think I would be particularly uncomfortable contemplating the prospect that someone might challenge me and that I might have to explain - look, I don't have a penis, I just look like a man; I'm supposed to use the women's room though. I might be even more uncomfortable worrying that some people wouldn't leave the situation at that. I would think that for many transgenders that is what this is about. It isn't about making a point or creating a scene, it's about avoiding one.

That's not to say that they should be allowed to use the bathroom that they identify with. And it especially isn't to say that they should be able to use the locker room that they identify with, your point about the differences is an apt one. But I think their discomfort isn't all that unreasonable, the question is what if anything should be done about it. It's hard for most of us to put ourselves in that situation. But assuming that we did look and dress as the opposite sex - a stretch, okay, but assuming we did - would we not be likely to feel uncomfortable going into our own sex's public bathrooms?

 

[This_person]

The greeks treated man-love as being purer, and having children as a necessary evil that had to be done with women.

Source that it was preferred, not accepted?

 

[PsyOps]

Except for the whole "men and women bathing together" thing. You really have no desire to learn a thing so you're just going to ignore any other evidence I present you. Go research sexuality in the ancient world, and in the middle ages, and clothing.

"A long time ago" to you seems to be "within the last one hundred and fifty years" for most of what you're talking about.

Evidence? You have evidence that men using the women’s showers is a largely accepted norm? What is there to really learn beyond what has been taught as biological FACT for eons… if you are born with male genitals you are a male; if you are born with female genitals you are a female. If you are a male dressed in female clothes you are still a male. If a male dressed as woman goes into a female shower to take a shower, once that male strips that dress off, revealing his genitals, no woman in that shower is going to view that person as anything other than a male. MOST will reject the premise of that MALE being in the female shower. That male’s discomfort being in a male shower should not override the discomfort he will create by being in a female shower.

And you (like so many others) need to stop lecturing everyone about what they ought to research. How about you go back to Biology 101 and learn the difference between male and female that has existed since the dawning of the human species.

And since you believe my thinking about this is 'culturally conditioned', then perhaps you could explain how a transgender's thinking is conditioned?

 

[Radiant1]

You’re not going to convince me there is any comparison to a person who has no choice in who they are (a black person) to someone who is making a choice not to be what they are (homosexuals/transgender).

I suppose we could get into the age-old argument of whether trans persons have a choice or not, but it was already done to death with the gays.

Now, don’t get me wrong on this… I want everyone to have equal rights.

No, you don't, or you wouldn't have said this:

I have no desire to tell gays or trans they shouldn’t have their lifestyle. I don’t believe using whatever public facilities you want is a right. My disagreement with their lifestyle ends with dictating to them that they don’t belong in this world. But when their ‘rights’ trump mine; when how they FEEL about things trumps how I feel about it, something is wrong with this. Your comfort as a transgendered woman (feeling like a man) to use the men’s shower should not trump my discomfort with you undressing in a men’s locker room. This gets exponentially complicated when it comes to hormonally enraged teens sharing locker rooms like this.

My getting upset about this (which I’m not; I’m simply voicing some concerns about how I expect it to be received), is irrelevant. I do not expect this to go over well. I expect most people – particularly women – will be hugely uncomfortable with a male taking off his dress in a lady’s shower, revealing he is indeed a male. You can call these people bigots or whatever, but don’t expect it to be well-received.

I know you think it's all about feelings and fair enough for you as long as you understand that no one gives a #### about your feelings anymore than you give a #### about theirs and you have no more or less right to yours than they do theirs. :shrug:

No, s/he should come on into the ladies room and do its business without making a big deal. Simple. I GUARANTEE no one will challenge her/him/it.

That is not what this legislation is about. It's about actual men, who look like men and are still every bit a man except for that they wear lipstick and a skirt, wanting to use the ladies room and also wanting to piss off and offend everyone else because they think it's their "right", and to hell with anyone else's rights. And that's bull####.

What next, they have to start putting those filthy urinals in the ladies rooms to accommodate these aholes? Put tampon dispensers in the mens room?

Just go use the freaking restroom already and shut up about it.

Exactly Vrai, stop looking at the person beside you and just use the ####ing bathroom already.

BZZZT! Wrong. I have it on good authority that lesbians have the same reaction to nekkid women that hetero women have. Not, "Hmmm..." but, "She looks amazing. I wish I had breasts like that. How does she keep her thighs so thin?" or "Ye gods, woman, put down the Ho Hos."

Women don't tend toward ogling, as a general rule. Men do - it's just part of their biology and they can't help it.

Bull####. Tell that to the dyke who followed me around at a concert all night talking about my tits even after I told her I wasn't interested. I have my own authorities who I am *very close* with, and I can assure you that some lesbians do sexualize women, and as long as that's the case the argument of the freak in a dress taking a piss in the stall beside you or even showering next to you while they wear lipstick just to get at you is moot.

In my opinion, you are conflating actions/desires with anatomy. I may want to be as strong as Ahnold in his heyday, I may believe deep in my heart that I am, but I'm actually not and I'll hurt myself if I live that way. I may want to be a woman, and dress like a woman, and wear make-up like a woman, but I am not a woman, so if I try to do the things only women can do, I will fail. Why is that? Is it because tampon manufacturers are unfair and didn't make tampons to fit penises? No, it's because I have a penis, not a vagina. My wants, thoughts, desires, beliefs really don't matter one iota on either of these things - I have a penis, therefore I am male. As much as I may identify as a female, I am a male.

***disclaimer - I am not a cross-dresser, nor do I identify as a female. This is all hypothetical word-play, not actual representation of myself. Shouldn't need to say that, but there are those on here who make such a declaration a requirement***

And you, and Psy as well as a good many others, are making anatomy the entire sum of a human being. Perhaps your identity is completely locked up with your penis, but that's not the case with everyone. I know someone who lost her entire reproductive system, *vagina included*, due to cancer. Is she less of a woman now that she doesn't have a female organ? Or heck, now that I mentioned that, are the women who have had total hysterectomies still women? After all, if sexual organs is what makes you who you are, then surely these ladies are no longer ladies and we should relegate them to using the gender-neutral restrooms that nobody wants to build. What about the man who has lost his testes? What about the person who is born hermaphrodite? Do they not take the gender that they identify with, and do you not accept that they do so? Why do you hold a transgendered person to a different standard?


Frankly, give or take a few generations the current argument about this issue will look quite daft. Just like the argument of whether a woman should wear pants or not is considered quite silly to us today. Or whether women should vote, or whether blacks can drink out of the same water fountain. The thing is, women's rights and racial equality wouldn't have occurred if it weren't for the activists. It just so happens that now it's LGBT's turn and instead of burning crosses and bras you're burning bathrooms. They *will* succeed so get used to the idea.

 

[vraiblonde]

I think I'd be hoping that no one noticed me and would avoid using public bathrooms whenever I could.

The newly gay and trans always think everyone's looking at them, and chances are good nobody really gives a damn. They are self-conscious just because they are, not necessarily because anyone is paying them special attention.

My nephew is gay, and now he's normal about it but when he first came out he was highly paranoid and sure that everyone was looking at him and pointing. PS, he lived in Seattle at the time, so...um...yeah, I'm sure the locals were just ate up with this particular gay dude. What's amusing is that he was insisting to his mom and me quite vehemently when we were back in Lincoln that people downtown were staring at him. I pointed out that he (at the time) had bright orange hair, and perhaps that's what people were staring at. No, he insisted, they were staring at him because he is gay.



Again, most trans people - if they're any good at it - could easily use the restroom that they most closely resemble and nobody would bother them. So why is this a thing?

I will suggest, even if you're not very good at being trans, you'd have to super suck at it to get anyone to give a damn. Sure, there will be a few people who care desperately and have nothing better to do with their time than pick a fight or be an ahole, but if the goal is to eradicate ALL forms of aholery in ALL humans...well, good luck with that.

 

[vraiblonde]

Exactly Vrai, stop looking at the person beside you and just use the ####ing bathroom already.

That's what I'm trying to say, sis - they are forcing me to look at them. They are going, "Look at me! Look at me! I'm a tranny in your bathroom! Using your toilets with my penis!! And you can't stop me! "

 

[vraiblonde]

Bull####. Tell that to the dyke who followed me around at a concert all night talking about my tits even after I told her I wasn't interested. I have my own authorities who I am *very close* with, and I can assure you that some lesbians do sexualize women, and as long as that's the case the argument of the freak in a dress taking a piss in the stall beside you or even showering next to you while they wear lipstick just to get at you is moot.

Maybe you're just hotter than me. I've never had a problem with lesbian friends trying to hit on me.

And of course there are "some" who will - there's always a "some", no matter how outside the norm the behavior. But that is not "most", nor is it even "many".

 

[This_person]

And you, and Psy as well as a good many others, are making anatomy the entire sum of a human being.

Absolutely not. I am making anatomy the entire sum of sexual identification (not orientation, not preference, not gender identification, but sexual identification). Perhaps your identity is completely locked up with your penis, but that's not the case with everyone.[/quote]Not even with me, either. But, I know someone is a male if they have a penis, and female if they were born without one.

I know someone who lost her entire reproductive system, *vagina included*, due to cancer. Is she less of a woman now that she doesn't have a female organ?

No one that I can tell is evaluating the amount a person is male or female. "Less of a woman"? How would that be measured? What are the units that is quantified in? Or, is it really just a stupid question?

Or heck, now that I mentioned that, are the women who have had total hysterectomies still women?

Pretty sure they can tell whether or not they have a penis, so I'm thinking they're still female.

After all, if sexual organs is what makes you who you are

There you go - wrong with the stem of the question, no need to go any further than this inaccurate premise

What about the man who has lost his testes? What about the person who is born hermaphrodite? Do they not take the gender that they identify with, and do you not accept that they do so? Why do you hold a transgendered person to a different standard?

I hold none of these people to a different standard than anyone else. Not sure how to answer a question that presupposes an inaccurate premise.

Frankly, give or take a few generations the current argument about this issue will look quite daft. Just like the argument of whether a woman should wear pants or not is considered quite silly to us today. Or whether women should vote, or whether blacks can drink out of the same water fountain. The thing is, women's rights and racial equality wouldn't have occurred if it weren't for the activists. It just so happens that now it's LGBT's turn and instead of burning crosses and bras you're burning bathrooms. They *will* succeed so get used to the idea.

I fully believe they will succeed. I fully believe we will go back to Lib's vaunted days when there is no difference between where men and women bath, urinate, etc. I'm just not seeing that as an advancement, or improvement.

 

[Radiant1]

Maybe you're just hotter than me. I've never had a problem with lesbian friends trying to hit on me.

And of course there are "some" who will - there's always a "some", no matter how outside the norm the behavior. But that is not "most", nor is it even "many".

True, and that's also the case with some dude in a dress trying to make you look at him.

 

[kwillia]

The newly gay and trans always think everyone's looking at them, and chances are good nobody really gives a damn. They are self-conscious just because they are, not necessarily because anyone is paying them special attention.

My nephew is gay, and now he's normal about it but when he first came out he was highly paranoid and sure that everyone was looking at him and pointing. PS, he lived in Seattle at the time, so...um...yeah, I'm sure the locals were just ate up with this particular gay dude. What's amusing is that he was insisting to his mom and me quite vehemently when we were back in Lincoln that people downtown were staring at him. I pointed out that he (at the time) had bright orange hair, and perhaps that's what people were staring at. No, he insisted, they were staring at him because he is gay.



Again, most trans people - if they're any good at it - could easily use the restroom that they most closely resemble and nobody would bother them. So why is this a thing?

I will suggest, even if you're not very good at being trans, you'd have to super suck at it to get anyone to give a damn. Sure, there will be a few people who care desperately and have nothing better to do with their time than pick a fight or be an ahole, but if the goal is to eradicate ALL forms of aholery in ALL humans...well, good luck with that.

That matches my experience... we had a dude at work that had been working with us for a couple years. From the day he started through the end of the business day on October 30th one year he was 'Benny'. We always celebrated Halloween and October 31st was always costume day for those who wanted to participate. He came to work as "Betty" and "Betty" was dressed to the 9s. He even won a prize in the costume contest. He then continued to come to work as Betty from that day forward. The vast majority of folks went about their daily business and the hardest thing to deal with using Betty instead of Benny and her instead of him and things like that... we had his and her bathrooms but within each bathroom were private stalls. Some women refused to use the bathroom at the same time as Betty others didn't pay it any mind.

To be honest... the one person that had the hardest time dealing with it seemed to be Betty. Betty became extremely paranoid that any negativity whatsoever was in direct response to the gender reassignment. It was extremely hard on the quality assurance folks as they were always being reported to management if they gave constructive criticism to her product. The biggest fiasco was when she left for the day and found she had a flat tire on her vehicle. She came marching back in and demanded the police be called because she had been vandalized. The police showed up and it didn't take long to figure out that the flat was due to a screw in the tire and not a knife slash as she had insisted.