The DUmmies are waterboarding each other to "prove" it is torture

[vegmom]

Saying torture is OK is making the assumption that every single prisoner interrogated is guilty and subhuman.

No one wants to turn millitary brigs into Club Med here. But we should not be torturing anyone if we are not damn sure they can give us intel to make it worth it.

 

[Ken King]

Getting Waterboarded // Current

This is part of the law in America because it is the treaty Congress ratified: Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

If you don't like the way the law is in America, then get Congress to pull out of the treaty.

Yes it was ratified but with a list of reservations such as -

The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following understandings, which shall apply to the obligations of the United States under this Convention:

(1) (a) That with reference to article 1, the United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.

(b) That the United States understands that the definition of torture in article 1 is intended to apply only to acts directed against persons in the offender's custody or physical control.

OHCHR - Committee against Torture

So if the act is done intending to obtain information and not solely to inflict severe physical or mental pain there is legal wiggling room, is there not?

 

[Larry Gude]

Reminds...

Saying torture is OK is making the assumption that every single prisoner interrogated is guilty and subhuman.

No one wants to turn millitary brigs into Club Med here. But we should not be torturing anyone if we are not damn sure they can give us intel to make it worth it.

...me of the movie 'The Patriot' when Heath Ledger's idealism gets both his younger brother and himself killed in an effort to do the 'right thing' when people who know war are telling you your idea of 'right' is...wrong.

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the
sooner it will be over." William T. Sherman

Osama bin Laden can end it all and bring peace. Today.

 

[vegmom]

...me of the movie 'The Patriot' when Heath Ledger's idealism gets both his younger brother and himself killed in an effort to do the 'right thing' when people who know war are telling you your idea of 'right' is...wrong.

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the
sooner it will be over." William T. Sherman

Osama bin Laden can end it all and bring peace. Today.

My old BF is coming back from Tehran this week. He's been caring for an ailing parent for nearly 2 years as any good Persian eldest son is supposed to. There is no logical reason he should have any problems reentering the US (Green Card holder, Zoroastrian, law abiding, trying to get his parents the heck out of Dodge). But he has a common first and last name- like being named "James Smith" there. What if someone with that name is on a watch list here? I should be more worried about him being stopped at the airport when he leaves, not when he lands back in the US.

 

[vraiblonde]

Bararous practices leads to proliferation of abuse and barberous society.

Then show me a barbarous practice prisoners have experienced at the hands of military guards?

And then show me what punishment said guard received.

I'll wait......

 

[vraiblonde]

Saying torture is OK is making the assumption that every single prisoner interrogated is guilty and subhuman.

Most of them are.

But we should not be torturing anyone if we are not damn sure they can give us intel to make it worth it.

Do you think our soldiers just pick up random citizens and start torturing them for information?

People who are clueless about how it works, yet try to make moral judgements drive me crazy.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

There is no logical reason he should have any problems reentering the US (Green Card holder, Zoroastrian, law abiding, trying to get his parents the heck out of Dodge). But he has a common first and last name- like being named "James Smith" there. What if someone with that name is on a watch list here? I should be more worried about him being stopped at the airport when he leaves, not when he lands back in the US.

...so...is he going to be sent off to Gitmo and beaten and have his feet tickled and forced to listen to Barbra Streisand expound on politics for days on end or is he gonna have to go through the same inconveniences that the rest of us have to deal with coming and going from the states?

What does his coming and going have to do with killing our enemies?

 

[Ken King]

Most of them are.


Do you think our soldiers just pick up random citizens and start torturing them for information?

People who are clueless about how it works, yet try to make moral judgements drive me crazy.

Psssst - that is "advanced interrogation techniques". TYVM

 

[vegmom]

...so...is he going to be sent off to Gitmo and beaten and have his feet tickled and forced to listen to Barbra Streisand expound on politics for days on end or is he gonna have to go through the same inconveniences that the rest of us have to deal with coming and going from the states?

What does his coming and going have to do with killing our enemies?

Gitmo would be a riot as my friend could give Mikesinmd a run for his money on the anti-Muslim rhetoric.

But like I said, common name, someone with the same could be on a watch list...I know its a stretch...but what if he was mistakenly detained and held somewhere that his friends or family knew nothing about?

 

[Novus Collectus]

Most of them are.


Do you think our soldiers just pick up random citizens and start torturing them for information?

People who are clueless about how it works, yet try to make moral judgements drive me crazy.

Random? No, but they have come close. They have picked up innocent people in an area after an attack with no evidence other than they are present and tortured them.
How would you like to be in the area of a terrorist attack, picked up and then tortured just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Until you are willing to say it is ok for you to be tortured by the US government even when innocent, then don't say it is ok for other innocent people to be tortured unless you don't mind being elitist or a hypocrit.

 

[vraiblonde]

But like I said, common name, someone with the same could be on a watch list...I know its a stretch...but what if he was mistakenly detained and held somewhere that his friends or family knew nothing about?

So what? They'll detain him, verify his identification, then release him. Happens all the time and it's no big deal.

 

[vegmom]

So what? They'll detain him, verify his identification, then release him. Happens all the time and it's no big deal.

And you know that how....?

Try talking to Iranians who have gone to visit family lately.

I have heard enough stories to cause concern.

 

[Novus Collectus]

So what? They'll detain him, verify his identification, then release him. Happens all the time and it's no big deal.

Are you blind by choice, ignorant or just simply naive?

Three Canadian men of Middle Eastern origin who say they were imprisoned and tortured in Syria are demanding an independent inquiry into their allegations.

The three — Muayyed Nureddin, Abdullah Almalki and Ahmad El Maati — told a news conference in Ottawa on Thursday that the federal government must follow the recommendations of Justice Dennis O'Connor, who investigated the case of Maher Arar.

Arar was arrested by U.S. authorities in September of 2002 and taken to Syria where he was interrogated and tortured for nearly a year.

O'Connor said Canadian officials had shared faulty information about Arar with the United States and Syria, and recommended that all such allegations be probed by an independent investigator.

.

3 more Canadians alleging torture seek Arar-style inquiry

Most of the time they are just inconvenienced or strip searched and interrogated for hours, but sometimes they are sent someplace to be tortured even though they are innocent.

 

[vraiblonde]

And you know that how....?

What do you think they're going to do? Beat him with a rubber hose?

 

[vraiblonde]

Are you blind by choice, ignorant or just simply naive?

I might ask you that same question.

#1, leftwing news sources lie their asses off and pass off fabricated stories as true accounts of events.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And, frankly, they may very well BE terrorists, because Canada has a very lax immigration policy and they don't really give a crap who they harbor in their country.

 

[Larry Gude]

Am I missing...

Are you blind by choice, ignorant or just simply naive?

who say they were imprisoned and tortured in Syria

Most of the time they are just inconvenienced or strip searched and interrogated for hours, but sometimes they are sent someplace to be tortured even though they are innocent.

...something here?

 

[Larry Gude]

This is off...

Gitmo would be a riot as my friend could give Mikesinmd a run for his money on the anti-Muslim rhetoric.

But like I said, common name, someone with the same could be on a watch list...I know its a stretch...but what if he was mistakenly detained and held somewhere that his friends or family knew nothing about?

...topic. I am not a 'better 100 guilty go free than 1 innocent go to jail' type.

Your friend may, may suffer some inconvenience. He may even be falsely accused and, maybe, maybe, maybe wrongly tortured. It may even happen to me. We may also get hit by lightening, run over by a bus or hit the lottery.

The topic is torture and whether or not it is a useful method of helping defeat our enemies; not whether or not mistakes are made by human beings.

Let's focus on the mistake OBL made in ####ing with us and defeating him and his side, shall we?

 

[vegmom]

I might ask you that same question.

#1, leftwing news sources lie their asses off and pass off fabricated stories as true accounts of events.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And, frankly, they may very well BE terrorists, because Canada has a very lax immigration policy and they don't really give a crap who they harbor in their country.

Like my friends parents that are trying to get the heck out of Tehran?

 

[Larry Gude]

Maybe they...

Like my friends parents that are trying to get the heck out of Tehran?

...could spend a little time over at DU land and educated those folks as to what tyranny really is and explain that the US is the place people try to go to get away from evil. That is if they can get them to stop water boarding each other long enough to even listen.

 

[Novus Collectus]

I might ask you that same question.

#1, leftwing news sources lie their asses off and pass off fabricated stories as true accounts of events.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And, frankly, they may very well BE terrorists, because Canada has a very lax immigration policy and they don't really give a crap who they harbor in their country.

The so called "left wing" Canadian Broadcasting Corporation was just creporting on court cases. The Canadian court awarded the man money because there was enough evidence he was tortured. It is a fact established in a North American court system.

#2, THE CANADIANS are the ones that tipped off the US that these guys were terrorists.

And? It means that people are are arrested by America and sent off to be tortured on false information........your point?
Mistakes happen and if you think Vegmom's boyfriend is not at risk of having th exact same thing happen to him if the US gives the UK false information that he is a terrorist when he is stopping over and he gets sent to a torturing country for "interrogation", then you are simply naive.
For that matter, any innocent American is subject to this happenning when travelling overseas because people like you said it is ok to torture suspects even when they are innocent. Just because you or any member of your family will ever leave the country does not give you the right to say it is ok for other innocent Americans to be tortured.
Untill you say it is ok to torture you even when you are innocent, don't say it is ok to torture other innocent Americans unless you are a hypocrit or a sadist.

We know the US government makes mistakes all the time with do not fly lists, and as far as we know dozens of innocent Americans have already been sent to be tortured in these countries based on worse false information or worse mistakes of intelligence. As long as these programs are in place, we are all at risk of our own government arranging for us to be tortured.