the Humanity of Jesus

[PsyOps]

And were does creation dictate how this is done?

"In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth... Genesis 1:1"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be... John 1:1-3"

I believe we have certain details explained through science. Where science can't explain how it all got there, God does. Where science can't explain the intelligence that goes into the conception of life, God does. How it is done, well... you'll have to ask God, because, beyond the explanation given in Genesis, I don't have it; and either does science.

 

[mtordie]

"In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth... Genesis 1:1"

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be... John 1:1-3"

I believe we have certain details explained through science. Where science can't explain how it all got there, God does. Where science can't explain the intelligence that goes into the conception of life, God does. How it is done, well... you'll have to ask God, because, beyond the explanation given in Genesis, I don't have it; and either does science.

Your quote says nothing about splitting cells as you were stating science couldn't prove. The bible proves nothing but claims plenty. Moreover, it tells you to kill plenty and to do down right crazy stuff. Such as tell daughters to sleep with their fathers and get pregnant by them. All from Genesis

19:32
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

19:35
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
19:37
And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
19:38
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Or how about when God kills all the first born of Egyptians in Exodus 12:29

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Or how about when you are suppose to beat your slaves to death in Exodus 21:20-21.

21:20
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Have sex with animal. Die. Kill the Animal too by the way. So much for forgiveness for sin. Leviticus 20:15-16

20:15
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I could go on for days at all of the absolute crap the bible says and doesn't prove.

 

[PsyOps]

Hi again,
Well, I guess that the ideas that the humanity of Jesus "relies" on Mary is the first clarification I can make. He only relied on her insofar as God put into place that each of us is a product of our mother and our father. I do not believe any of us pro-create without the intervention of God; all life comes from Him.
Many people think the CC puts too much emphasis on Mary, and I can see why folks think that if they don't understand why the church teaches what she does. That is why, as I said in my first post, I did do the research as an adult, about the doctrines of Catholicism. Who/what Mary is and was is entirely dependent on Christ, it's not the other way around. For early century heretics who may have argued His oneness with the Father, it had to made clear that Jesus was God, hence the title for Mary, theotokos.
The passage from Scripture you cited is not in any way contradictory to what I believe to be truth. I don't think Jesus was bringing Mary's position down, I think He was trying to elevate the rest of us. She was, indeed, His mother, and nobody argues that. So, it follows based on this passage that she does the will of the Father. Perhaps she was chosen to be the literal, biological mother of Jesus because she was perfectly united to the will of the Father.:shrug:
Jesus fulfilled all of the commandments perfectly, so I would imagine that honoring His mother would include doing all that was within His power to spare her from that which would destroy her, that being sin. Again, aside from the biological concerns I said at the first, His sparing her from original sin would be a thoroughly appropriate way of a Son to honor His mother.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit in a way that no other human has been. THAT is His humanity. But when you consider Mary was also filled with the Holy Spirit all that she was and conveyed to Jesus came from God.

And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you… Luke 1:35

I never meant to imply that Jesus didn’t honor Mary. John 19:26-27 expresses this:

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

If you note that, even though Luke refers to Mary as Jesus’ mother, Jesus called her “woman” not “mother”. Why would He do this? Could it be for the same reason he did not recognize Mary as his mother in Matthew 12? I think it’s an attempt to show that Jesus was not beholden to the paternal/fraternal lineage. His lineage is that of God.

 

[PsyOps]

Your quote says nothing about splitting cells as you were stating science couldn't prove. The bible proves nothing but claims plenty. Moreover, it tells you to kill plenty and to do down right crazy stuff. Such as tell daughters to sleep with their fathers and get pregnant by them. All from Genesis

I could go on for days at all of the absolute crap the bible says and doesn't prove.

First of all you have to consider that the times of Genesis were a different time. You can’t apply today’s thinking to this any more than you could apply your thinking to the Renaissance or even the 1960s for that matter.

Your question was a little vague so I answered as best I could. Neither science nor religion explains how the splitting of an egg cell results in a human. Science attempts to show that chromosomes have assignments to map out each part of the body, but does not explain how the chromosomes know. I mean how does each chromosome know “okay, arm you go here, leg here; all the way down to the cellular level? I agree the bible doesn’t go into detail about this either. Given that I chose to believe God either left it up to us to figure out or a secret because the process is too complicated for us to understand, or both. Either way, you either operate on faith that it is what it is or that there is an intelligent “something” out there that made it happen. I don’t subscribe to the thinking that apparent random processes can have the same results over and over.

What you claim doesn’t make sense to you may make perfect sense to someone else. One thing I have said already is that the concept of God and our existence doesn’t make sense; and that is in the context of how we understand things in our limited sort of way. “Crazy stuff” happens all the time. This doesn’t disprove God. I never understood the concept of sacrificing animals as a burnt offering to God for forgiveness of sins. But God demanded it and the people complied. Of course this makes about as much sense to me as you and I aimlessly waking up every morning, hopping in our cars to go to work, working our butts off to earn a little money to feed our families only to turn around and die. All for what? To pass the same process on to the next generation? I mean in the larger context of things, does anything we are doing on this earth make any sense at all? We’ve come to accept certain things that we do in the course of our lives without giving a second thought to how it is we got to this point. I happen to believe there is a purpose. And God will reveal this one day. Until then, most of it will make no sense. Crazy stuff.

Lastly let me say that if you are looking to the Bible to prove something, you will be disappointed. I don’t look for proof of things through the Bible. I don’t use it to disprove this or prove that. That not the purpose of the Bible.

 

[ItalianScallion]

So IT and PsyOps,
Neither of you believe that Jesus' Humanity was from His mother?? That really is a new one for me to hear, and exactly why I started this thread. The doctrine of the CC is perfectly sound if one accepts that Mary was truly His mother, but sadly, I guess I see why some of you so vehemently deny her sinlessness. I'll have to look up chapter and verse, but the Bible does say that the Savior would be from the "seed" of a woman. It also says that Christ is a son of David by the flesh.

I can believe that His humanity was from his mother but again, Libby, the Bible doesn't say, (and because of that no one else should venture a guess) in great detail, how Jesus was conceived in Mary. Please show me anywhere that it says that Mary was sinless. Any Bible translation will tell you that Mary "found favor with God" and nothing more.
As far as His being a son of David, this is how His lineage was described. Jesus asked the Pharisees (Matthew 22 v 41-46) how can David call the Son of man "Lord" and yet the Son of man be David's son? This explains the dual natures of Jesus (both God & man).

IT, if none of us have any original or actual sin on us at conception/birth, why do we endure the suffering imposed by the fall? Even sinless children suffer, so it seems to me that consistency would demand that suffering not begin until actual sin is committed, wouldn't it?

The same way a child is brought into the family of alcoholic parents and inherits the abuse. Is it the childs fault? Of course not but, when (if) the child becomes old enough to be accountable for his own sins and follows in his parents lifestyle, he'll be punished. Jesus told the story of a man born blind (John 9) and, when asked if he was born blind because he sinned or his parents did, Jesus said neither. We are all accountable for our own sins when we get old enough to do them.

IT said in an earlier post that there is no such thing as original sin. Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, "for as by the disobedience of one man many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19). In verse 12, which corresponds to verse 19, we see that by one man two things have been brought on all men, sin and death, the one being the consequence of the other and therefore not identical with it. The Apostle did not affirm that all men are mortal on account of their actual sins; since children who die before coming to the use of reason have never committed such sins; but he expressly affirms the contrary in the fourteenth verse: "But death reigned", not only over those who commited actual sin as Adam did, but "even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam." If original sin does not exist, what is the theological reason why we have such a desire to do our own will instead of God's?

You must take the entire teaching of the Bible into consideration here. For example, the Bible says all have sinned and yet Jesus was sinless and babies have no accountability, so is there a contradiction? No, because of the way the Bible is written. Sometimes it states something clearly, other times there is an inferred meaning. You have to ascertain from the words that we are born with a "sin nature" not sin. Otherwise the concept of the "age of accountability" goes out the window. This is so important to realize and yet many churches do not know this. The reason that we sin is that we make the choice to (James 1 v 14). Jesus NEVER made that choice. Paul even made it clear that without the law, there is no sin. Without any accountability, there is no sin. How can a baby be sent to Hell if it committed no sin? Why should anyone be punished if they didn't sin? Remember Ezekiel 18, it is so important on this issue.

 

[ItalianScallion]

The bible proves nothing but claims plenty. Moreover, it tells you to kill plenty and to do down right crazy stuff. Such as tell daughters to sleep with their fathers and get pregnant by them.
I could go on for days at all of the absolute crap the bible says and doesn't prove.

You'd probably have a lot of trouble understanding a book on brain surgery (unless you're a surgeon), so why would you think you'd understand the Bible if you aren't a Christian? It does NOT tell daughters to have sex with their fathers but the other stuff about beastiality is justly stated. The Bible is many things, one of them being a historical book telling us what other people did long ago. That doesn't mean that God is ok with it. Is your conscience bothering you? You seem very upset at what you read. A lot of anger in your words. Why not study and learn more about it here?

 

[mtordie]

You'd probably have a lot of trouble understanding a book on brain surgery (unless you're a surgeon), so why would you think you'd understand the Bible if you aren't a Christian? It does NOT tell daughters to have sex with their fathers but the other stuff about beastiality is justly stated. The Bible is many things, one of them being a historical book telling us what other people did long ago. That doesn't mean that God is ok with it. Is your conscience bothering you? You seem very upset at what you read. A lot of anger in your words. Why not study and learn more about it here?

"It does NOT tell daughters to have sex with their fathers" The Bible surely does. Read below and tell me how you interrupt it?

Genesis

19:32
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

19:35
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
19:37
And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
19:38
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

 

[mtordie]

First of all you have to consider that the times of Genesis were a different time. You can’t apply today’s thinking to this any more than you could apply your thinking to the Renaissance or even the 1960s for that matter.

Your question was a little vague so I answered as best I could. Neither science nor religion explains how the splitting of an egg cell results in a human. Science attempts to show that chromosomes have assignments to map out each part of the body, but does not explain how the chromosomes know. I mean how does each chromosome know “okay, arm you go here, leg here; all the way down to the cellular level? I agree the bible doesn’t go into detail about this either. Given that I chose to believe God either left it up to us to figure out or a secret because the process is too complicated for us to understand, or both. Either way, you either operate on faith that it is what it is or that there is an intelligent “something” out there that made it happen. I don’t subscribe to the thinking that apparent random processes can have the same results over and over.

What you claim doesn’t make sense to you may make perfect sense to someone else. One thing I have said already is that the concept of God and our existence doesn’t make sense; and that is in the context of how we understand things in our limited sort of way. “Crazy stuff” happens all the time. This doesn’t disprove God. I never understood the concept of sacrificing animals as a burnt offering to God for forgiveness of sins. But God demanded it and the people complied. Of course this makes about as much sense to me as you and I aimlessly waking up every morning, hopping in our cars to go to work, working our butts off to earn a little money to feed our families only to turn around and die. All for what? To pass the same process on to the next generation? I mean in the larger context of things, does anything we are doing on this earth make any sense at all? We’ve come to accept certain things that we do in the course of our lives without giving a second thought to how it is we got to this point. I happen to believe there is a purpose. And God will reveal this one day. Until then, most of it will make no sense. Crazy stuff.

Lastly let me say that if you are looking to the Bible to prove something, you will be disappointed. I don’t look for proof of things through the Bible. I don’t use it to disprove this or prove that. That not the purpose of the Bible.

OK. The purpose of the bible is what?

 

[PsyOps]

Anonymous Karma Giver...

the Humanity of Jesus 03-04-2008 06:51 PM Your opinion is just that yours. Giving me bad karma for mine is shows your true intent about your beliefs.

First of all, since you didn't sign your Karma to me I have no idea who you are. Secondly, I don't give "bad" Karma. I'm assuming you mean red. I only give green. Period. You have the wrong guy.

 

[PsyOps]

OK. The purpose of the bible is what?

For Christians it's a guide.

 

[This_person]

Logically Christianity is trying to make us beleive that some cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib woman was convinced from a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Original

Pointless, inaccurate wording does nothing to forward your argument. Makes a point as to how strong your argument is.

 

[This_person]

Your quote says nothing about splitting cells as you were stating science couldn't prove. The bible proves nothing but claims plenty. Moreover, it tells you to kill plenty and to do down right crazy stuff. Such as tell daughters to sleep with their fathers and get pregnant by them. All from Genesis

19:32
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

19:35
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
19:37
And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
19:38
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Or how about when God kills all the first born of Egyptians in Exodus 12:29

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

If you read this as God suggesting that people should sleep with their parents, it demonstrates you don't understand the story.

In what way is the relating of a story a suggestion to follow it?

Or how about when you are suppose to beat your slaves to death in Exodus 21:20-21.

21:20
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Do you think that having slaves is suggested, or do you think this suggests you should NOT beat your slaves, but if you do it's your own loss of their services. Again, you read with poor understanding.

Have sex with animal. Die. Kill the Animal too by the way. So much for forgiveness for sin. Leviticus 20:15-16

20:15
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And, bestiality should be fully accepted, in your opinion?

Act, have consequences. Makes sense to me. And, that they're put to death does not imply lack of forgiveness, just lack of being able to infect other people with their sickness.

I could go on for days at all of the absolute crap the bible says and doesn't prove.

So, you understand the concept of "faith" then?

Prove how life came from muck, and you'll show how science proves anything that matters.

 

[tommyjones]

Original

Pointless, inaccurate wording does nothing to forward your argument. Makes a point as to how strong your argument is.

other than the zombie part, i dont see a lot of inaccuracies, just a list of things that christians ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

 

[This_person]

other than the zombie part, i dont see a lot of inaccuracies, just a list of things that christians ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

Well, then lets take it a bit at a time.

Logically Christianity is trying to make us beleive​

Christianity is trying to make anyone believe anything. It's a belief that you're able to have all on your own. A true Christian cannot be forced to believe, but must believe on their own. First part that Christians don't believe.

that some cosmic Jewish zombie​

Do I need to explain that Christians don't see Christ as a cosmic zombie?

can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh​

The actions that get someone to Heaven have nothing to do with the rituals. Everlasting life is the belief for everyone (your soul, remember). It's the life you'll have - Heaven, Hell.....

and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master​

It's what's in your heart, not a "telepathic" Western Union message

so he can remove an evil force from your soul​

Well, the evil force is still there, but you're saying you're going to try and live your life fighting against it, instead of allowing it to run your life

that is present in humanity because a rib woman​

A "rib woman"? What's a "rib woman"?

was convinced from a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.​

The tree and eating was, IMO, a metaphor. Gained the knowledge of good and evil, became self aware, knew they were naked, etc. Became more than the cattle in the field, the dog in your house.

Do you see how it's a collection of inaccuracies, and claiming Christians believe it as written is not even close to true?

 

[PsyOps]

Original

Pointless, inaccurate wording does nothing to forward your argument. Makes a point as to how strong your argument is.

Good catch!

 

[tommyjones]

Well, then lets take it a bit at a time.

Logically Christianity is trying to make us beleive​

Christianity is trying to make anyone believe anything. It's a belief that you're able to have all on your own. A true Christian cannot be forced to believe, but must believe on their own. First part that Christians don't believe.

that some cosmic Jewish zombie​

Do I need to explain that Christians don't see Christ as a cosmic zombie?

can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh​

The actions that get someone to Heaven have nothing to do with the rituals. Everlasting life is the belief for everyone (your soul, remember). It's the life you'll have - Heaven, Hell.....

and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master​

It's what's in your heart, not a "telepathic" Western Union message

so he can remove an evil force from your soul​

Well, the evil force is still there, but you're saying you're going to try and live your life fighting against it, instead of allowing it to run your life

that is present in humanity because a rib woman​

A "rib woman"? What's a "rib woman"?

was convinced from a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.​

The tree and eating was, IMO, a metaphor. Gained the knowledge of good and evil, became self aware, knew they were naked, etc. Became more than the cattle in the field, the dog in your house.

Do you see how it's a collection of inaccuracies, and claiming Christians believe it as written is not even close to true?

these are all things that christians are supposed to believe. putting your spin on it doens't mean that these are not MAJOR parts of christianity.

Putting them all together in common language makes the whole idea seem a little shakey, dont it?

 

[This_person]

these are all things that christians are supposed to believe. putting your spin on it doens't mean that these are not MAJOR parts of christianity.

Putting them all together in common language makes the whole idea seem a little shakey, dont it?

I've been a Christian for a long time. I can honestly say I've never felt made to be a Christian, believed in a cosmic zombie, thought the rituals were necessary for salvation, done ANYthing telepathically, had any idea what a "rib woman" is, or was taught or understood anything about a magical tree.

Not a single thing in there is a "MAJOR" part of Christianity. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The concepts of Christianity were not put together in "common language", there was a series of dip#### words strung together to make something sound bad, with no basis in truth.

 

[Xaquin44]

The tree and eating was, IMO, a metaphor. Gained the knowledge of good and evil, became self aware, knew they were naked, etc.

I wasn't aware that was supposed to be a metaphor.

 

[This_person]

I wasn't aware that was supposed to be a metaphor.

Well, they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not an apple tree. Maybe in the Garden it is physically a tree. Outside of that, I've not seen a physical tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so I have to take it by context clues.

Much like the whole Adam and Eve's daughter-in-law question (the importance of which you and I have discussed repeatedly before), the lesson isn't the details.

Edit: My repeated disclaimer; I speak for no one but myself here, my understanding only.

 

[Starman3000m]

So IT and PsyOps,
Neither of you believe that Jesus' Humanity was from His mother?? That really is a new one for me to hear, and exactly why I started this thread. The doctrine of the CC is perfectly sound if one accepts that Mary was truly His mother, but sadly, I guess I see why some of you so vehemently deny her sinlessness.
I'll have to look up chapter and verse, but the Bible does say that the Savior would be from the "seed" of a woman. It also says that Christ is a son of David by the flesh.
IT, if none of us have any original or actual sin on us at conception/birth, why do we endure the suffering imposed by the fall? Even sinless children suffer, so it seems to me that consistency would demand that suffering not begin until actual sin is committed, wouldn't it?
Again, in my research into my faith I have come to understand the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, that is, that Mary was spared in anticipation of her role as Christ's mother. If she was spared, then He could get His humanity from her without challenge to His full Humanity. If not, His Humanity could be challenged.
Gotta go to the kiddos...looking forward to more.

Hi libby,

You raise an interesting point here regarding Yeshua's humanity through being born of a virgin human woman and His Divinity through being born as a result of direct Intervention of the Holy Spirit. The miracles He performed and ability to discern the thoughts of others indicate, of course that He was more than just an ordinary "human".

Yes, Yeshua had human traits and attributes in the physical sense but His ability to be indwelled by The Spirit of God gave Him greater power and ability to overcome the world in the sense of temptations and trials that He endured.

The Holy Bible states that Yeshua was "tempted in all points" yet remained without sin. That means His total being was sinless even though born of a woman.

Now, here is the deciding point that you raise: Did Yeshua inherit sin because of His human mother. The answer, is NO due to the fact that according to the Holy Bible the sin seed is passed down through the genes of the human father (Adam). In other words, the woman does not genealogically carry the sin seed although she would be be the recipient of a sinful nature from her human father. Did I lose you here?

Without a human father to pass along the sin-seed, the virgin birth through Mary allowed Yeshua's blood to be sinless, without blemish and void of the curse that was placed upon Adam and Adam's seed. In other words, Mary was still a human of sinful flesh and in need of forgiveness but Yeshua was not.

Of course, this was a unique birth that could only have been accomplished by Yahweh whereby even the prophets had proclaimed the uniqueness of His birth: "Unto us a child is born..." There had to be something unique about the Son of God and it was His attribute to relate to mankind as a human but walk among His people as God; Perfect and Sinless in all manner from birth to death and Resurrected unto Glory.

One other point to add here: In Judaism, the family genealogy of Jewishness is passed down through the mother not the father. So, Yeshua was able to have inherited the lineage of David through Mary - and did not come through Joseph since Joseph was not the father anyway!

A child born of a Jewish mother is Jewish; a child born of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother does not inherit the Jewish line.