The Illusion of Choice: Romney vs Obama

PsyOps

Pixelated
Socialism, fascism, communism are fundamentally under the same ideology: collectivism. Which is the belief that the state is master of the people and that indvidual freedom can and will be sacrifed for the "greater good" at the will of the sate. Both Romney and Obama fall under collectivism, arguing between over form of collectivism is better, is falling fool to the false left vs right paradigm.

And so is Romney's because he supports central banking (The Federal Reserve). Congress is given away its authority to coin money to a private banking cartel that basically uses monopoly money to legally enslave the entire nation. But of course, this is an unspoken issue.

And how do you conclude this is Romney? You can throw all the ‘isms’ at me all you want, sounding all intellectual and what-not, but the bottom line is I have outlined for you the stark differences between Obama and Romney. There are, indeed, things about Romney that lean left. I’d hardly call them socialist, but I’d certainly call them liberal. In a different thread I made comparisons to Romney and Reagan (the poster child of the GOP) and they don’t look all that different on most policy-related things.

I am by no means trying to endorse Romney. I am only trying to point out that 1) Romney is far from being a socialist; especially in the most conventional of terms and 2) and most importantly, Romney and Obama are hugely different.

And you’ve proven to me that the Ron Paul/Gary Johnson types have put yourself in a bubble that anyone that is the slightest move to the left of these guys is a socialist. It’s a very narrow perspective that will really never get us anywhere. It’s a zero-sum game for you. That’s why, at this point people like Paul and Johnson can’t win in this current political climate.
 

foodcritic

New Member
What does that mean? If we, say, pass a budget that is, say, $1 trillion more than the prior one, can we then, on the following budget, cut it $1 trillion? Is that incrementally?

:popcorn:

what do you mean? How about freeze spending at current rates for a period of time until the budget is balanced? Then we could look at actually reducing spending in various categories. That's one option. Not complicated.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
what do you mean? How about freeze spending at current rates for a period of time until the budget is balanced? Then we could look at actually reducing spending in various categories. That's one option. Not complicated.

How does "freezing" spending at current levels, with annual deficits of around a trillion dollars, help anything?
 

FoundingFather

New Member
And how do you conclude this is Romney? You can throw all the ‘isms’ at me all you want, sounding all intellectual and what-not, but the bottom line is I have outlined for you the stark differences between Obama and Romney. There are, indeed, things about Romney that lean left. I’d hardly call them socialist, but I’d certainly call them liberal. In a different thread I made comparisons to Romney and Reagan (the poster child of the GOP) and they don’t look all that different on most policy-related things.

Here are a just a few agreements between the two that lead me to believe they are collectivists:

1. They support a centrally planned economy where a "smart" few at a central bank control the supply of money and the interest rates.

2. They support bailouts. Romney may have not supported the auto bailouts but he supported TARP.

3. They support the Patriot Act and also support the NDAA, which by the way, includes a clause that American citizens can be infinitely detained without due process.

4. They support intervention in the Middle East and the coming war on Iran. Neither believe they need Congressional approval to declare war as required by the Constitution.
 
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PsyOps

Pixelated
Here are a just a few agreements between the two that lead me to believe they are collectivists:

1. They support a centrally planned economy where a "smart" few at a central bank control the supply of money and the interest rates.

2. They support bailouts. Romney may have not supported the auto bailouts but he supported TARP.

3. They support the Patriot Act and also support the NDAA, which by the way, includes a clause that American citizens can be infinitely detained without due process.

4. They support intervention in the Middle East and the coming war on Iran.

  1. Okay, I’ll agree with this.
  2. Romney states differently: Mitt Romney Urging Republicans to Vote Against Stimulus Bill - YouTube
  3. I think you’re, once again, exaggerating Romney’s position: Mitt Romney on the National Defense Authorization Act amendment - YouTube
  4. I think we ought to do one of two things here. Either take on the Reagan doctrine of ‘peace through strength’ – position our defense systems strategically all around the region to send a clear message we’re not going to take it anymore, or get out altogether (pull all troops out, close all embassies, stop importing their oil, everything; completely isolate the region). But I will agree with Romney that we can’t just ignore Iran like we ignored al Qaeda.

But, given your few points, I take it you agree that Obama and Romney are still hugely different from each other. In light of our current economic ‘crisis’ we have to keep things a very fundamental level. The tens of millions that are out of a job – and have been for months, even years – don’t care about the items you pointed out above. They want to know what this government is going to alleviate their pain. On that front, Obama and Romney have hugely different plans and ideals.
 

FoundingFather

New Member

No, he does not state differently: Mitt Romney on Bank Bailout: "Right Thing To Do" - YouTube. Are you sure you understand what TARP was? It was a bank bailout, not an economic stimulus bill. He clearly supported it, saying it was the "right thing to do". If you want to stand by Romney and the banks, be my guest.

[*]I think you’re, once again, exaggerating Romney’s position: Mitt Romney on the National Defense Authorization Act amendment - YouTube

In the video you linked, he did not even know what the legislation said! In the GOP debates, he clearly said he supported the NDAA and would have signed it: Mitt Romney - Yes I would Sign NDAA - YouTube. How could you support anyone who would agree to indefinitely detain you without due process of law?


But, given your few points, I take it you agree that Obama and Romney are still hugely different from each other. In light of our current economic ‘crisis’ we have to keep things a very fundamental level. The tens of millions that are out of a job – and have been for months, even years – don’t care about the items you pointed out above. They want to know what this government is going to alleviate their pain. On that front, Obama and Romney have hugely different plans and ideals.


No, I do not agree that they are hugely different. Although my list was short, it is fundamentally SIGNIFICANT. The differences you listed are fundamentally insignifcant.
 
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FoundingFather

New Member
  1. Okay, I’ll agree with this.

    The tens of millions that are out of a job – and have been for months, even years – don’t care about the items you pointed out above. They want to know what this government is going to alleviate their pain. On that front, Obama and Romney have hugely different plans and ideals.



  1. The fact that millions are out of a job is largely due to #1 above. Our economic crisis was caused by the central planning of the Federal Reserve. Each American is systematically having their wealth stolen from them by the banks through the use of debt based paper money that is printed at will and handed to the banks. Everyone should be very concerned about central banking, they are just not aware of this issue and how it effects them.

    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
    - Thomas Jefferson

    “It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
    -Henry Ford
 
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PsyOps

Pixelated
No, he does not state differently: Mitt Romney on Bank Bailout: "Right Thing To Do" - YouTube. Are you sure you understand what TARP was? It was a bank bailout, not an economic stimulus bill. He clearly supported it, saying it was the "right thing to do". If you want to stand by Romney and the banks, be my guest.

You want to get insulting, be my guesst. Take your blinders off, go back and read my post where I said that I am not endorsing Romney. I am simply trying to point out that he is hugely different than Obama. Romney supported TARP but was against the stimulus. If he was FOR BAILOUTS he also would have supported stimulus.

In the video you linked, he did not even know what the legislation said! In the GOP debates, he clearly said he supported the NDAA and would have signed it: Mitt Romney - Yes I would Sign NDAA - YouTube. How could you support anyone who would agree to indefinitely detain you without due process of law?

I know, you are an expert, far more so than Romney. :notworthy:

In the context of his statement in the clip I provided I think he is against indefinite detention of Americans. He talking in the context of those that have decided to become a enemy combatant of this country. In every war we have been in, for the duration of that war, we have held POWs indefinitely until that war has ended. There is no one going around rounding up Americans at whim and detaining them. We are in a new realm where we have Americans committing treason and taking up arms against this country. In today’s world of gathering intelligence there is value to detaining these people. We have also seem the danger of releasing these people back into circulation (as the recent embassy attack in Libya has proven). Due process of law, as applied to American citizens and those that commit domestic crimes, does not apply to enemy combatants.

No, I do not agree that they are hugely different. Although my list was short, it is fundamentally SIGNIFICANT. The differences you listed are fundamentally insignificant.

And, as I said before, you are operating from your narrow, very far right wing bubble. I gave you differences, you refuse to acknowledge them. Can’t help you there.
 

Buckwheat

New Member
Gary Johnson is a dweeb that would embarass us internationally more than Obamie! Gary Johnson??? Really??? That's your alternative???
 

FoundingFather

New Member
And, as I said before, you are operating from your narrow, very far right wing bubble. I gave you differences, you refuse to acknowledge them. Can’t help you there.

You do not understand political ideology. My view is not "right wing". My message is anti-big govermnet and power to the people. That is not a right wing philosophy. Its FREEDOM and its what founded this country. You fall victim to the modern false left vs right paradigm.

I acknowledge the differences, but they are not meaningful differences. In fact, the dfferences are just distractions to keep you unaware of more important issues like those I discussed above. Everyone will continue to suffer loss of individual freedom under Obama or Romney, and individual freedom is all that should matter in the USA.
 
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PsyOps

Pixelated
The fact that millions are out of a job is largely due to #1 above. Our economic crisis was caused by the central planning of the Federal Reserve. Each American is systematically having their wealth stolen from them by the banks through the use of debt based paper money that is printed at will and handed to the banks. Everyone should be very concerned about central banking, they are just not aware of this issue and how it effects them.

You can go on and on about the Fed, paper evaluated money vs. gold standard :blahblah: You’re an educated guy. Most Americans do not dig this deep into the trenches. They are going to make their decision based on their wallets in more simple terms: taxes, government spending, government programs, etc… That’s just how it is. I don’t like it and it’s obvious you don’t like it.

What you’re not getting about me, and it keeps getting lost in your attempt to prove me wrong with analytical politics, is I am not trying to prove you wrong about the problem with politics today. I’m simply challenging you on your claim that Romney and Obama are one in the same.
 

foodcritic

New Member
How does "freezing" spending at current levels, with annual deficits of around a trillion dollars, help anything?

It assumes economic growth and increased revenues. IF we don't have that then the whole things falls apart.....or we just print more worthless money.
 

FoundingFather

New Member
You can go on and on about the Fed, paper evaluated money vs. gold standard :blahblah: You’re an educated guy. Most Americans do not dig this deep into the trenches. They are going to make their decision based on their wallets in more simple terms: taxes, government spending, government programs, etc… That’s just how it is. I don’t like it and it’s obvious you don’t like it.

What you’re not getting about me, and it keeps getting lost in your attempt to prove me wrong with analytical politics, is I am not trying to prove you wrong about the problem with politics today. I’m simply challenging you on your claim that Romney and Obama are one in the same.

I'm not sure how I can be more clear: the likes of Romney and Obama are exactly what is wrong about politics today and that is what makes them so similar.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
It assumes economic growth and increased revenues. IF we don't have that then the whole things falls apart.....or we just print more worthless money.

While I agree that a freeze in spending might qualify as "better than nothing", I think that we need to get moving on a program of fiscal austerity rather than one based only on "waiting for the economy to revive".
 

foodcritic

New Member
In the video you linked, he did not even know what the legislation said! In the GOP debates, he clearly said he supported the NDAA and would have signed it: Mitt Romney - Yes I would Sign NDAA - YouTube. How could you support anyone who would agree to indefinitely detain you without due process of law?

.

IF you join terrorists in another country to fight against US soldiers, by your very actions you have forfeited your rights. And Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the civil war...
 

FoundingFather

New Member
IF you join terrorists in another country to fight against US soldiers, by your very actions you have forfeited your rights. And Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus during the civil war...

And what then when you are fasely accused?

Those that give up freedom for security, deserve neither.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
I'm not sure how I can be more clear: the likes of Romney and Obama are exactly what is wrong about politics today and that is what makes them so similar.

I don't know how I can make it more clear... there are HUGE differences between Obama and Romney.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
I always love how people pick a third candidate, claim the others are in bed with the system, and that theirs will be different when they get in charge; and discount any opinion that one of the others may be different. Everyone is just reading the 'tea leaves' and assuming they have a feel for the candidates.

What we know? Huntsman has no real voting history to prove one way or the other; he has advocated for significant caps on green house gases and emissions; he has consistently voted for a more simplified tax structure and helped implement one in Utah; and he has made lots of promises to be more conservative minded (but a little more liberal on social issues) but he has not had to live under the pressure of an intense political campaign and really explain his positions or how he will achieve them any more than other candidates.

While he seems great... there is about as much for us to go on as there was for Obama the first time around - and I heard complaints all over this board about how there was too little background to go on then.

Not hating on him; just pointing out the irony in claiming another guy from a party is less likely to become part of the 'system' after being elected.
 

FreedomFan

Snarky 'ol Cuss
I find this kind of thinking really interesting. I always think of things as relative. If you ask an Obamaite Romney is a radical right wing zealot. If you ask a moderate Romney is just a right winger. However, ask a far right person and Romney is a socialist.

OK, point and criticism taken. I may use a bit of absurdity in my rants to make a point, but only a little.

Obama’s answer is to pump more fake money into the system. He has no desire to slow spending. He has no desire reduce the size of government. He desires to dictate, through government power, our lives: what to buy, what not to buy, speech, religion, etc…

Well, jiggering around with the money supply is the job of the Fed. We could go on about the pluses and minuses of what Keynesianism has morphed into, but it may be a OT for this thread. Bottom line, POTUS cannot tell the Fed chairman what to do.

Romney on all fronts is opposite, and his track record as governor shows it. He managed a balanced budget. He lowered unemployment. He reduced taxes for EVERYONE. I am adamantly against universal healthcare even at the state level, but I agree that it should be left up to the states to decide these things; and Romney has stated this as well.

Can't say I have much to disagree with you on here.

Romney believes life begins at conception. Obama doesn’t even believe life is viable after it’s born.

OK, abortion has no place at the table at the national level. Like health care, it belongs to the states. And while you may be correct that Romney thinks that life begins at conception, to say he is pro-life is not correct. Just ask him how he feels about the NDAA, and the right to kill Americans at-will without due process. I don't call myself pro-life because the term seems to have religious connotations, and I leave my faith out of public discourse. I am however, against women killing fetuses. I am also against the death penalty, and I am anti-war. In short I believe in non-violence towards all, a point that BOTH Romney and Obama fall far short on in my book.

Romney has promoted energy intendance. He wants to open up domestic drilling on nearly every front. He promotes alternative energy source by stimulating the PRIVATE sector rather than pump billions into failing ‘alternative energy’ companies. Obama shows no desire to get us off foreign oil, is against new drilling and exploration in the US, and wants to abuse our taxes by throwing billions trying to stand up government-run ‘clean’ energy companies.

I believe your argument is flawed.

We are already pretty close to energy independent, as long as you say "North American energy independence" and not "United States energy independence". Somewhere between 88% and 90% of our oil consumption comes from Canada and Mexico, ie, North America. Both candidates are identical on this, make no mistake. I am absolutely not against a sovereign nation drilling on her own land for oil, but we just don't have that much. The light sweet crude is gone, and as for the rest, think sucking molasses through a straw on a cold January day. It doesn't matter if there are a bazillion barrels of oil in the ground. The only thing that matter is that you can extract at a rate that meets or exceeds wells that are drying up and dying off.

Both candidates have changed their language of late to say "North American" vs. United States energy independence.

Point taken about Obama picking winners and losers, or whatever you want to call that. I'm not an Obama apologist.

Romney believes there must be tax incentives that don’t punish any class of American. He believes the economy grows through stimulating job growth through lower taxes, especially to those that are trying to start up businesses, those already running small businesses, and those running large businesses (the one’s that provide the largest base in jobs. Romney believes our economy grows from the top down. Obama wants to punish the success of these people with higher taxes. He believe our economy grows from the bottom up.

I think the tax argument presently before us is a red herring. We are a consumer-based economy, and as soon as citizens aren't scared sh!tless about the future, they will start consuming again. Low taxes doesn't stimulate business growth or demand, consumer spending does. I don't care how much tax Romney does or does not pay. It's irrelevant.

BTW, I personally believe in a model of zero corporate taxation, so I suspect we can find some common ground here.

The only difference I see between the two on foreign policy is Romney wont apologize for what American does or has done. Obama seems to think we are the reason for the world’s problems.

I'm from the Ron Paul school of foreign policy: "Free trade with all, entangling alliances with none." I suspect we're pretty far apart on that, and I am OK with that.

This is not an attempt to sell Romney. I’m only pointing out that Obama and Romney, on nearly every issue, are hugely different. If you don’t see this then you live your life in a far, FAR right wing bubble.

I hope you now see how I can see them as the same candidate. I'm not trying to unsell you on Romney, but I hope you'll at least have a better idea where I'm coming from. :buddies:
 

FoundingFather

New Member
I always love how people pick a third candidate, claim the others are in bed with the system, and that theirs will be different when they get in charge; and discount any opinion that one of the others may be different. Everyone is just reading the 'tea leaves' and assuming they have a feel for the candidates.

What we know? Huntsman has no real voting history to prove one way or the other; he has advocated for significant caps on green house gases and emissions; he has consistently voted for a more simplified tax structure and helped implement one in Utah; and he has made lots of promises to be more conservative minded (but a little more liberal on social issues) but he has not had to live under the pressure of an intense political campaign and really explain his positions or how he will achieve them any more than other candidates.

While he seems great... there is about as much for us to go on as there was for Obama the first time around - and I heard complaints all over this board about how there was too little background to go on then.

Not hating on him; just pointing out the irony in claiming another guy from a party is less likely to become part of the 'system' after being elected.

Who said anything about Huntsman? This discussion only mentioned Gary Johnson who is a two-term governor and who will be on the ballot come November.

While it is true that anyone can become corrupt, Republicans and Democrats have already proven for decades that they are in fact corrupt. Why would you not at least try a different party? Especially a party such as the Libertarian party who's princples stand on limited constitutional government, which is in line with the origin of this nation.
 
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