the moral chicken and egg

This_person

Well-Known Member
i dont see religion ANYWHERE in that definition...... so no, you are not making it clearer, you are muddying the waters.

morals do not come from religion, in fact, your definition suggests that laws and religion come from morals
Actually, now you're starting to get my whole jist.

Society's rules (laws) come from morals. Morals come from the foundation that they're based upon. Thus, the atheist is acting in a "moral" way only because of laws and customs, not the foundation. Not the "morals".

The word "religion" is not in there, but the concept is. The definition speaks to foundations - NOT CUSTOMS or LAWS. It speaks of the distinction between "right and wrong". The foundations of right and wrong, of ethical principals, come from religions.

Again, I will bring up the recent case of the raped girl being punished by her society because she put herself in the position of being raped. Our society, based upon primarily Christian morals and the laws that come from them, finds that concept reprehensible. That society, based upon its set of morals - its set of right and wrongs from its laws from its primary religion - believes that to be the correct way to act. The morals come from the religion, the laws come from the morals. Atheists get their concept of right and wrong from the religions they were raised around.

I hope I'm clearing it up now! :lol:
 

Xaquin44

New Member
No, all one definition from dictionary.com

you forgot some =)

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.
7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.
8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
–noun 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.
10. the embodiment or type of something.
11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.


whee =)

also from dictionary.com
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
you forgot some =)

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.
7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.
8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
–noun 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.
10. the embodiment or type of something.
11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.


whee =)

also from dictionary.com
Right. They didn't pertain to the discussion. Note, the highlighted on in #9 is talking about the moral of a story, not morals. The other highlighted on (11) still speaks of right and wrong. Those concepts, of course, being founded in something.

Not sure where you're going with this.....
 

Xaquin44

New Member
Right. They didn't pertain to the discussion. Note, the highlighted on in #9 is talking about the moral of a story, not morals. The other highlighted on (11) still speaks of right and wrong. Those concepts, of course, being founded in something.

Not sure where you're going with this.....

Habits with respect to right or wrong conduct (i.e. laws)

the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in experience (i.e. don't be a jerk or people will be a jerk back to you)

both account for no need for religion to acheive the goal.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Habits with respect to right or wrong conduct (i.e. laws)
No, as Tommy pointed out above, the laws are written based upon the concepts of right and wrong conduct, which are based upon morals. Morals are not based upon laws. See #3 under adjectives
the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in experience (i.e. don't be a jerk or people will be a jerk back to you)
The moral of a story is a way of getting the concept of a moral out to be understood. And, what is a moral - something based upon a foundation that does NOT include customs nor laws.
both account for no need for religion to acheive the goal.
The goal of getting the story out, no. The foundation of the substance of the moral - where else is it coming form if not a religion (with the clear understanding it's not from customs or laws)?
 

Xaquin44

New Member
The moral of a story is a way of getting the concept of a moral out to be understood. And, what is a moral - something based upon a foundation that does NOT include customs nor laws.

I wasn't talking about a story I was talking about experience. Like it says in one of the definitions.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I wasn't talking about a story I was talking about experience. Like it says in one of the definitions.
the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.

You're saying the practical lesson contained in experience is the the moral teaching.

We're saying the same thing.
 

Xaquin44

New Member
It's the foundation, the principle behind the morality. The title of the morality is the moral when applied to experience, or a metaphorical story.

but experience does not mean religion.

you can experience things that make you a good or bad person (or make you want to do good or bad things) that have nothing to do with religion.

as many people have.
 

tommyjones

New Member
"morals do not come from religion"

So, religion came from man. I mean if man made morals he also made early laws and rules - isn't religion man's combination of both???? (I don't believe what is being siad, I'm just trying to follow what is being said here by a couple of the posts.)

I changed the highlighted section to show what i feel more accurately
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
There is a difference between religion and Christianity.

Religion is man made. Religion is a bunch of rules that man makes to try to get to a god or even to The God.

Christianity is God reaching down to man and providing the only path to Him free for the acceptance.
 

Xaquin44

New Member
There is a difference between religion and Christianity.

Well christianity is a religion ....

Religion is man made. Religion is a bunch of rules that man makes to try to get to a god or even to The God.

Rules like say commandments? Or perhaps rules written in some kind of book format detailing (poorly) what you need to do to get god in your life.

Christianity is God reaching down to man and providing the only path to Him free for the acceptance.

So is most any other religion .... it's all a matter of what you want to believe.
 

tommyjones

New Member
There is a difference between religion and Christianity.

Religion is man made. Religion is a bunch of rules that man makes to try to get to a god or even to The God.

Christianity is God reaching down to man and providing the only path to Him free for the acceptance.

welll then you have a real problem considering christianity came from other religions, which you just pointed out are man made. therefore, christianity is man made..... you have just made a religion that says its comeing from god
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Well christianity is a religion ....



Rules like say commandments? Or perhaps rules written in some kind of book format detailing (poorly) what you need to do to get god in your life.



So is most any other religion .... it's all a matter of what you want to believe.

welll then you have a real problem considering christianity came from other religions, which you just pointed out are man made. therefore, christianity is man made..... you have just made a religion that says its comeing from god

You both have so little understanding. Sad.
 

Xaquin44

New Member
:lalala:

oh, hello .... You do know that debate and discussion both consist of more then 'you don't even know'?

right?

I mean if these are the means by which you educate other christians then I feel genuinely sorry for them.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
but experience does not mean religion.

you can experience things that make you a good or bad person (or make you want to do good or bad things) that have nothing to do with religion.

as many people have.
And you can experience things that teach you a lesson. And, when the lesson teaches morality - something founded in something other than tradition, custom, and law - it's called the moral of the experience.
 

tommyjones

New Member
And you can experience things that teach you a lesson. And, when the lesson teaches morality - something founded in something other than tradition, custom, and law - it's called the moral of the experience.

but its not called the religion of the experience, or the moral of the religion.....
 
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