Understanding Taqiyya

[ProximaCentauri]

They're not extreme!!! They are fundamentalists. There are ANY number of videos floating around showing ISIS in controlled areas with the religious police patrolling. The people are happy, sober, productive and don't seem the least bit bothered because this is the faith as they were taught as kids; fundamental. It is telling the people they punish, especially drug users who expect to be put to death. They are VERY calm about it and accepting as it is the LAW they were taught their whole lives. They act like people who strayed and know it and knew the penalty and have simply accepted it.

There isn't a fundamentalist Christian out there who can't at the very least, respect the world these people wish to live in; devout, consistent, fair as per their faith. No surprises. Immodesty is punished as is corruption, idleness and drug use.

This is NOT an endorsement. These people are taught and, at core, believe in a religion that is very strict by Western standards of today but, not so very much different than the old Testament Christianity days of not too long ago many in the US say they miss.

That is what they are fighting for; a fundamentalist, faithful life. It has it's rules and ways but, they are not, not remotely, a bunch of loons just making it up as they go. They are fighting against the corruption of their faith by the modern and Western world.

There are some threads of truth in this post but to say their only objective is to return to a "fundamentalist" practice of the Islamic faith is a fallacious oversimplification. It's about establishing totalitarian rule over the Islamic world, a caliphate, and eventually over the entire world. And, it's not only westerners that view them as extremists, the Islamic moderates view them this way as well. The ISIS interpretation of the Islamic faith, is in a word, extreme.

 

[Larry Gude]

There are some threads of truth in this post but to say their only objective is to return to a "fundamentalist" practice of the Islamic faith is a fallacious oversimplification. It's about establishing totalitarian rule over the Islamic world, a caliphate, and eventually over the entire world. And, it's not only westerners that view them as extremists, the Islamic moderates view them this way as well. The ISIS interpretation of the Islamic faith, is in a word, extreme.

I'm not going to argue expertise but, one of the themes of the Koran is that peace will be had when all are faithful.

In the world of religion, when 1+1=2, when you are a fundamentalist, devout, and the world starts to argue that 1+1 is sorta 2, maybe a little 3, kind of 1+ ish, and you don't like the way things are going, morality, social disintegration, the corruption they see in the Saudi Royal family, they are simply saying "No. 1+1=2. Says so right here." and the rest of us, because we don't like things plain, are like "Extremists! Radicals! Yeah, it says 1+1=2 but, it doesn't really mean that!"

If ISIS were conducting themselves outside the faith, doing odd things, then, you would have an argument. Given that they are conducting themselves in a fundamental fashion, my observation is neither untrue nor an oversimplification. It is just that simple.

 

[Gilligan]

The ISIS interpretation of the Islamic faith, is in a word, extreme.

That would be a nice apology...were it not for the observable fact that ISIS is a small minority in a large population of Muslims who believe and behave exactly as they do. Are you being paid to spew the stuff you do?...or are you part of it?

 

[Larry Gude]

That would be a nice apology...were it not for the observable fact that ISIS is a small minority in a large population of Muslims who believe and behave exactly as they do. Are you being paid to spew the stuff you do?...or are you part of it?

I guess we should define 'extreme'.

They are literal. Compared to many Muslims, many people of faith, they are 'extremely' serious.

I guess that's the thing; if you are serious about your faith, you're extreme. Yet, then, there is the whole other direction. If the book says what it says, aren't 'moderates', the people who don't take is seriously, the 'extreme'? They are the ones making stuff up. Arguing against the literal.

Is an accountant 'extreme' if they do the math correctly? Is a surgeon 'extreme' if he follows all the procedures? Are cops 'extreme' for giving you a ticket for 11 over and not 10? Are the Ebola procedures 'extreme'? I mean, that's the thing. Fundamentalists believe that NOT following the word is what is wrong. Westerboro wasn't extreme 50 years ago. They wouldn't have even been noteworthy. They haven't moved. How'd they GET extreme?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I guess we should define 'extreme'.

They are literal. Compared to many Muslims, many people of faith, they are 'extremely' serious.

I guess that's the thing; if you are serious about your faith, you're extreme. Yet, then, there is the whole other direction. If the book says what it says, aren't 'moderates', the people who don't take is seriously, the 'extreme'? They are the ones making stuff up. Arguing against the literal.

Is an accountant 'extreme' if they do the math correctly? Is a surgeon 'extreme' if he follows all the procedures? Are cops 'extreme' for giving you a ticket for 11 over and not 10? Are the Ebola procedures 'extreme'? I mean, that's the thing. Fundamentalists believe that NOT following the word is what is wrong. Westerboro wasn't extreme 50 years ago. They wouldn't have even been noteworthy. They haven't moved. How'd they GET extreme?

Good points regarding the definition of 'extreme'. But I don't believe you get to where ISIS is in their worldview, by a simple fundamental practice of Islam.

ISIS claims to trace the lineage of its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, directly back to the prophet Muhammad to establish his claim to be caliph. And, ISIS has declared that... "The legality of all emirates, groups, states and organizations becomes null by the expansion of the khilafah's authority and arrival of its troops to their areas."

ISIS wants to establish a ruthless, totalitarian regime. Their rules and their interpretations, and death to anyone who opposes them. This stance by ISIS is considered "extreme" not only by westerners but by Muslims alike.

 

[Larry Gude]

Good points regarding the definition of 'extreme'. But I don't believe you get to where ISIS is in their worldview, by a simple fundamental practice of Islam.

ISIS claims to trace the lineage of its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, directly back to the prophet Muhammad to establish his claim to be caliph. And, ISIS has declared that... "The legality of all emirates, groups, states and organizations becomes null by the expansion of the khilafah's authority and arrival of its troops to their areas."

ISIS wants to establish a ruthless, totalitarian regime. Their rules and their interpretations, and death to anyone who opposes them. This stance by ISIS is considered "extreme" not only by westerners but by Muslims alike.

I totally disagree. Ruthless to achieve the caliphate, sure but, it is true to say Islam is a religion of peace...just so long as everyone believes what 'we' believe. You watch some of those videos of the taken territory and note how calm it is. How readily the moral police are welcomed. Further, what is it when a nation just executes people with robots with no goal, it seems, other than to just kill? Can we claim to be righteous? Having a purpose? A good and noble one?

Why do you think it has been so easy to just throw an army together like this? Believers, sort of believers, all fall in line together readily from a common understanding of the faith when someone comes along, grabs the sword and says "your life sucks because you are betrayed by our leaders and corrupted by the West! Life would be grand if it was simple again! Fair, uncomplicated, righteous!" And that has a strong appeal to men who don't like the Westernization of their world and young men who have nothing better to do.

Saudi has long used us to deal with their 'extremists' by simply kicking them out or readily allowing them to go jihad somewhere, anywhere, but here at home. It's their pressure relief valve. It is an outlet for all the discontent within the nation. The 'extremist' goal is to return Saudi to fundamentalist way of life. The goal from the Saudi standpoint is to allow the pressure to bleed off by letting the 'radicals' and 'extremists' go off and fight and be hero's....and get killed by the United States.

They're not some kooks trying to cook up a new faith. They are fundamentalist holding up the book and saying 'obey! follow!' and a LOT of people are readily falling in and why so many, obviously support them. This is why it goes on and on, like communism, and doesn't collapse, like Naziism. It's not a cult driven by one personality. It was in the beginning but, now, like communism, it is an institution, a faith, and all it needs is the willing to lead. No one man is indispensable. All people understand the rules, motives and reasoning.

Consider all the tests running around the web about basic 'America' things. Stuff about our Constitution, core 'American' stuff. Most of our young people are clueless. There is no common banner to rally around anymore. No god, country, apple pie. Do a test about core Islam and...you get 15,000-30,000 people ready to take up arms, travel, and go fight for the faith.

Is someone who believes in the bill of rights an extremist?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I totally disagree. Ruthless to achieve the caliphate, sure but, it is true to say Islam is a religion of peace...just so long as everyone believes what 'we' believe. You watch some of those videos of the taken territory and note how calm it is. How readily the moral police are welcomed. Further, what is it when a nation just executes people with robots with no goal, it seems, other than to just kill? Can we claim to be righteous? Having a purpose? A good and noble one?

Why do you think it has been so easy to just throw an army together like this? Believers, sort of believers, all fall in line together readily from a common understanding of the faith when someone comes along, grabs the sword and says "your life sucks because you are betrayed by our leaders and corrupted by the West! Life would be grand if it was simple again! Fair, uncomplicated, righteous!" And that has a strong appeal to men who don't like the Westernization of their world and young men who have nothing better to do.

Saudi has long used us to deal with their 'extremists' by simply kicking them out or readily allowing them to go jihad somewhere, anywhere, but here at home. It's their pressure relief valve. It is an outlet for all the discontent within the nation. The 'extremist' goal is to return Saudi to fundamentalist way of life. The goal from the Saudi standpoint is to allow the pressure to bleed off by letting the 'radicals' and 'extremists' go off and fight and be hero's....and get killed by the United States.

They're not some kooks trying to cook up a new faith. They are fundamentalist holding up the book and saying 'obey! follow!' and a LOT of people are readily falling in and why so many, obviously support them. This is why it goes on and on, like communism, and doesn't collapse, like Naziism. It's not a cult driven by one personality. It was in the beginning but, now, like communism, it is an institution, a faith, and all it needs is the willing to lead. No one man is indispensable. All people understand the rules, motives and reasoning.

Consider all the tests running around the web about basic 'America' things. Stuff about our Constitution, core 'American' stuff. Most of our young people are clueless. There is no common banner to rally around anymore. No god, country, apple pie. Do a test about core Islam and...you get 15,000-30,000 people ready to take up arms, travel, and go fight for the faith.

Is someone who believes in the bill of rights an extremist?

Neither is Christianity a religion of peace. Islam is 'release 3.0' in the Abrahamic trilogy of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The fact is, none of the Abrahamic religions are "religions of peace". If you want to find a true religion of peace, you might try Jainism or Tibetan Buddhism.

With regard to the videos showing tacit acceptance of ISIS, do you mean to imply that all Muslims will happily fall in line with ISIS rule? ISIS executes the Shia summarily as they do not consider them to be true Muslims; Shias can't exist in their version of Islam.

And, the majority of Sunnis in the world are not wishing for ISIS rule. They consider them "extremists" as we do. If you're unhappy with the term 'extremist', get used to it. 'Fundamentalist' is not going to go mainstream (even if many ISIS practices could be characterized as 'fundamental' Islamic interpretations of the faith).

Agree, the US can't claim "righteousness". When we do, we are no different than Islamic entities claiming righteousness. The fact that we are over 80% Christian, makes us vulnerable to a crusades-like mentality with respect to Islam. The 2 most popular Abrahamic religions are poisonous to the world, especially in the last millennium.

With your last paragraph, you question America's patriotism; I think you're reaching here. American ideals remain largely intact in my view. I think the bigger problem is the US religious fundamentalist movement, to use your word, who would
like to see the US move in the direction of a theocracy.