Vrai? Otter? Catt? Sparx?? ST??

[SmallTown]

At least I offered potential solutions. All you do is b!tch.

It wasn't me b!tching about it. It was the soldiers

 

[itsbob]

They're making hay out of a reporter feeding the armor question to Rumsfeld the other day, but I thought it was a good question regardless of who thought of it. Rumsfeld replied with something like "we get the Army we've got, not the one we wish we had."

I'm not satisfied with that answer. We're either going to fight a war or we're not. The correct answer, I suspect, is that Congress hasn't approved the necessary funding to properly equip our troops. If that's the case, Rumsfeld needs to say so out in the open so we can all bombard our Congresspeople and DEMAND that they approve this funding IN FULL.

Our POC for 1st Cav instructed us not to send body armor to our soldier because they had everything they needed. Obviously this isn't the case with all divisions or Rumsfeld would have said so.

If Bush has to raise taxes or cut spending in other areas, so be it. I, personally, vote for "cutting spending in other areas". Because I have to tell ya, I'm not real compassionate toward some chickie with 6 kids getting welfare payments while our troops need body and vehicle armor.

Anyone who knows more about this than me, please speak up and set me straight if I've got it wrong.

I think Rumsfelds point was, some vehicles just aren't Armored, never were, and more then likely never will be. Our parents and grandparents went to war in the M151 jeep, there was NO such thing as an Armored Jeep. This is a choice of give and take. If you want a vehilce that can carry 1.5 tons of cargo, food ammo etc, you armor it, now you can only carry 500 lbs of supplies or troops..

The armored variant of the HMMWV is normally used by the MP's, with a very selected mission. But like the jeep or yesterday, the HMMWV is supposed to ba a utility vehicle with multiple missions that can change from day to day. Armoring it can take away from it's versatility. Infantry and other "combat support" (like fuels) have always depended on unarmored, or underarmored vehicles to get the job done. Using the lack of Armor as an excuse NOT to complete a mission is an act of cowardice.

My 20 years in the Army I NEVER saw an armored 2.5ton (Deuce and a half) or 5 ton truck, the trucks that brought the fuel to our tanks in the field weren't armored.... neither were the HMMWVS we used for Recon missions.. just as, the Helicopters that are used in the utility mission on the front lines aren't either.. the Blackhawks.. the Chinooks.. etc...

Bottom line is, if you have a mission to do, you do it with what you have. Don't take the cowards way out and ##### about what you don't have. Mission first.

 

[dems4me]

Dems, if you want to send the body armor over to the troops you would first have to know a person over there to obtain an address, then purchase some of the armor, and ship it to them. Include a note saying that if they already have their own that they should pass it on to another that doesn't. This isn't brain surgery.

Well it could be rocket science if I don't know anyone over there... which I DON'T. That's why I was asking -- I know Vrai has a son over there and that's it. I was hoping someone would pm me and give me the name and address of a relative or something over there. I was just trying to help :shrug: Excuse me for trying to be thoughtful so close to the Holidays

 

[Ken King]

It wasn't me b!tching about it. It was the soldiers

Didn't think the soldier was b!tching, just asking a question for a reporter that wasn't being given an opportunity to place the SECDEF on the spot.

 

[aps45819]

-- if y'all know of a soldier or two in need of body armor, let me know....

It's not body armor that they need. It's additional armor on the sides of their HumVees

The Haliburton nobid contract wasn't a do or die deal....

Are you refering to the no-bid contract they got from Clinton to do work in South eastern Europe?

 

[dems4me]

It's not body armor that they need. It's additional armor on the sides of their HumVees


But they also need body armor .... they interviewed a kid about 18 that was explaining how body armor saved his life when he walked over a landmine and then he said HIS GRANDMOTHER gave it to him... I was apalled and outraged over this... so, having received my Christmas bonus at work was trying to solicit a family or two that can't afford to send body armor over. I wasn't trying to start an argument or name calling ...

 

[Ken King]

Well it could be rocket science if I don't know anyone over there... which I DON'T. That's why I was asking -- I know Vrai has a son over there and that's it. I was hoping someone would pm me and give me the name and address of a relative or something over there. I was just trying to help :shrug: Excuse me for trying to be thoughtful so close to the Holidays

So if it wasn't Christmas time you wouldn't care? You know we have had people over there for almost two years now and many are listed on the SOMD Wall of Heros here http://somd.com/misc/pridewall/ I think the reservists and Guard guys and gals have greater equipment issues then the regulars.

 

[itsbob]

So you honestly think that we can send troops all over the world on a momemts notice, send Aircraft, tanks, helos into areas on a whim, yet armor gets stuck in red tape? Hardly. The military, especially those in combat areas, normally have what they need when they need it. Now that it has come to the forefront of the media, I guess we'll see how much the red tape is reduced.

I think the question about body armor is.. There was new body armor procured to replace or upgrade the Kevlar Vests the Army had in the inventory, and as a rule, the combat arms troops, Infantry, Armor, Cavalry, get the goods first.. I mean as a rule they are generally the ones on the front lines. You would normally give an upgraded weapon or personal protection to an infantryman before you would give it to a finance clerk.

Factories can only make so many at a time, and issue decisions have to be made. Where the proplem lies in Iraq, we have a number of what would be considered "rear Echelon" soldiers doing patrols and such they would not normally be doing. From what I understand, they still have the Kevlar vests, the Kevlar Helmets, they just don't have the "new" stuff, or the inserts to upgrade the vest they have.. (Usually a ceramic trauma plate that slips into the front and back of the vest)

 

[itsbob]

It's not body armor that they need. It's additional armor on the sides of their HumVees


But they also need body armor .... they interviewed a kid about 18 that was explaining how body armor saved his life when he walked over a landmine and then he said HIS GRANDMOTHER gave it to him... I was apalled and outraged over this... so, having received my Christmas bonus at work was trying to solicit a family or two that can't afford to send body armor over. I wasn't trying to start an argument or name calling ...

All I can say, is all the footage, all the pictures, I haven't seen a single soldier or Marine out there without body armor on.. you'd think it this was a problem the Post would be plastered with pictures of soldiers in the fight without.

NOW to get on to the Armored HMMWV's.. the ones we do have are armored with ballistic glass.. BUT the glass does no good if you have the window down. Now picture yourself driving around in an armored vehicle, it's 100 degrees out, and you have NO ventilation or Air Conditioning.. You lower the window you defeat the purpose of having an Armored HMMWV..

So write your senators, write Senator Kerry, and ask them why they denied the funding to equip our armored vehilces with AC, they thought it was too cost prohibitive, NOT important while they sit in their Air Conditioned offices in DC.

 

[dems4me]

Factories can only make so many at a time, and issue decisions have to be made. Where the proplem lies in Iraq, we have a number of what would be considered "rear Echelon" soldiers doing patrols and such they would not normally be doing. From what I understand, they still have the Kevlar vests, the Kevlar Helmets, they just don't have the "new" stuff, or the inserts to upgrade the vest they have.. (Usually a ceramic trauma plate that slips into the front and back of the vest)

I don't really know if I believe this theory... a Grandmother had bought one :shrug:

 

[ylexot]

I don't really know if I believe this theory... a Grandmother had bought one :shrug:

Like I said, I don't think grandma bought the new stuff. Maybe someone can find a retailer online...

 

[dems4me]

Like I said, I don't think grandma bought the new stuff. Maybe someone can find a retailer online...

Yes SHE did... and it was on FOX news.... he was thanking his Grandmother for it. -- that's what doesn't make sense to me and has me bothered that there's troops without this and that's why I was trying to do my part and help...

 

[Ken King]

Yes SHE did... and it was on FOX news.... he was thanking his Grandmother for it. -- that's what doesn't make sense to me and has me bothered that there's troops without this and that's why I was trying to do my part and help...

Here http://www.tradeboss.com/default.cgi/action/viewtradeleads/tradeleadid/32570/subject/ARMORED_VESTS/ buy a damn vest, get an address in Iraq and ship it to someone.

 

[itsbob]

I don't really know if I believe this theory... a Grandmother had bought one :shrug:

Have you seen ANY pictures of any soldiers or Marines on patrol without body armor?? On CNN, in the POST.. you don't think these pictures wouldn't be plastered all over the front page if they had them??

 

[Ken King]

That's fcuking holiday spirit!!!

Thanks

I'll look around around the internet for an actual address...

Ever think I just tire of hearing continuous whinning and just want you to STFU.

 

[dems4me]

Ever think I just tire of hearing continuous whinning and just want you to STFU.

 

[itsbob]

I don't really know if I believe this theory... a Grandmother had bought one :shrug:

Grandma might have bought the inserts, but I honestly believe the soldier had his vest to begin with.. Kevlar Vests have been aound almost 22 years.. EVERYBODY in the Army got one upon arrival to their unit. Hell, we even got issued our own body bags, just in case. (not the case with most units, just some particular "kiss your butt goodbye" units)

 

[SmallTown]

Didn't think the soldier was b!tching, just asking a question for a reporter that wasn't being given an opportunity to place the SECDEF on the spot.

Doesn't make the question any less important though, does it? And I suppose the couple thousand troops in attendance who started to clap loudly when the question was posed were simply bought off my the media?

 

[itsbob]

Doesn't make the question any less important though, does it? And I suppose the couple thousand troops in attendance who started to clap loudly when the question was posed were simply bought off my the media?

Just a bunch of rear echelon Mo Fo's... Our unit weighed the benefit to the body armor, and helmet to the restrictiveness of movement and the noise distortion, and decided neither would be compatible to our mission. IF the ballon went up, we would have went with boonie caps and no vest.. LOT stealthier, and easier to shoot move and communicate. Try to fight after walking 10 or twenty miles weighed down by all that crap.

As in the HMMWV.. go ahead and weigh it down with armor.. add a couple thousand of pounds to it.. then when the sh1t hits the fan, see how fast it can get you out of the kill zone. We have always depended on lighter faster vehicles to outmaneuver the enemy. It's the rule of give and take, you can't have it all.. well unless you were smart enough to enlist as a 19K (M1 tank Crewmember).. then you DO have it all.

 

[Ken King]

Doesn't make the question any less important though, does it? And I suppose the couple thousand troops in attendance who started to clap loudly when the question was posed were simply bought off my the media?

That many didn't clap loudly, but quite a few gave an "oohrah" after the question was asked, which I am sure was done to signify that they wished they had the "stones' to ask it. As covered already we don't have every single piece of equipment armor plated nor is it realistic to do so. This is war, we will lose people, we don't like it, wish we could protect everyone, but that too is unrealistic. Why don't you recommend to Rummy that they get the Starwar Stormtrooper outfit like in your avatar, after all it worked pretty good in the movies?