Was Jesus Born With a Bible?

[TheLibertonian]

I just want him to answer the question but answering the question means having to admit that you are wrong:

Sin brought death and no amount of good works can pay for death to go away. And when they face that reality then how do they know their good works will get them into heaven? How do you know if you have done enough? They really can't answer that question because if it could, they could pay for death to go away and it doesn't work that way...

They try to answer that question but it is an assumption and perhaps they are using verses that pertain to a different dispensation of time.

Ok. So to clarify, and I have to ask because otherwise i cannot follow up, when you say "sin brought death" you mean death as in you don't go to heaven, right?

 

[Chuckt]

Ok. So to clarify, and I have to ask because otherwise i cannot follow up, when you say "sin brought death" you mean death as in you don't go to heaven, right?

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.-Romans 11:6 KJV

I'll put it in another translation that people can understand:

New International Version
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6 NIV) Copyright

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: -Ephesians 2:8
Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:9

Salvation is by grace and when you work for it, Salvation is no longer a gift and "...it is no more grace" according to Romans 11:6.

It is a salvation issue and a rejection of what Christ did on the cross because what you are saying is that God's work is not enough to save you and I see it as a rejection because you are trying to save yourself and we know that none of your good works can pay for you not to get old and die some day because God doesn't accept your works on that basis...

Unless you are born a second time from above, you cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

 

[TheLibertonian]

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.-Romans 11:6 KJV

I'll put it in another translation that people can understand:

New International Version
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Romans 11:6 NIV) Copyright

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: -Ephesians 2:8
Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:9

Salvation is by grace and when you work for it, Salvation is no longer a gift and "...it is no more grace" according to Romans 11:6.

It is a salvation issue and a rejection of what Christ did on the cross because what you are saying is that God's work is not enough to save you and I see it as a rejection because you are trying to save yourself and we know that none of your good works can pay for you not to get old and die some day because God doesn't accept your works on that basis...

Unless you are born a second time from above, you cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

That wasn't what I asked, but I'll roll with it.

What we have here is a very classical Paul/James debate. Except when you actually look at what was written, you'll realize that they're saying the same thing.

James was simply saying that by being a good christian, you naturally do good works. Hence "salvation by good works" being the idea that by being a good christian, good works are something you would naturally do, or to put it another way, being christian means doing good works for others. It's a part of being a Christian.

Or in other words: It is not enough to merely say you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, you have to live your life by what he preached. It is not merely enough to do good works, you must have faith as well. One naturally leads to the other in a good christian, is the argument James makes.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Or in other words: You cannot be a Christian without doing good works, because good works are a INHERENT part of the faith. Therefore you cannot hold true faith in Christ without doing good works as Christ did.

And indeed, no where in catholic theology is it argued that WORKS ALONE is a path to heaven. You must have faith, and faith naturally leads to good works, and indeed good works is often a path to faith, but it is only in faith that you can earn your place in the kingdom of heaven.

According to catholic doctrine, anyway.

 

[Bird Dog]

That wasn't what I asked, but I'll roll with it.

What we have here is a very classical Paul/James debate. Except when you actually look at what was written, you'll realize that they're saying the same thing.

James was simply saying that by being a good christian, you naturally do good works. Hence "salvation by good works" being the idea that by being a good christian, good works are something you would naturally do, or to put it another way, being christian means doing good works for others. It's a part of being a Christian.

Or in other words: It is not enough to merely say you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, you have to live your life by what he preached. It is not merely enough to do good works, you must have faith as well. One naturally leads to the other in a good christian, is the argument James makes.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Or in other words: You cannot be a Christian without doing good works, because good works are a INHERENT part of the faith. Therefore you cannot hold true faith in Christ without doing good works as Christ did.

And indeed, no where in catholic theology is it argued that WORKS ALONE is a path to heaven. You must have faith, and faith naturally leads to good works, and indeed good works is often a path to faith, but it is only in faith that you can earn your place in the kingdom of heaven.

According to catholic doctrine, anyway.

You are trying to desribe the color red to a blind man......

 

[Chuckt]

That wasn't what I asked, but I'll roll with it.

What we have here is a very classical Paul/James debate. Except when you actually look at what was written, you'll realize that they're saying the same thing.

James was simply saying that by being a good christian, you naturally do good works. Hence "salvation by good works" being the idea that by being a good christian, good works are something you would naturally do, or to put it another way, being christian means doing good works for others. It's a part of being a Christian.

Or in other words: It is not enough to merely say you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, you have to live your life by what he preached. It is not merely enough to do good works, you must have faith as well. One naturally leads to the other in a good christian, is the argument James makes.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Or in other words: You cannot be a Christian without doing good works, because good works are a INHERENT part of the faith. Therefore you cannot hold true faith in Christ without doing good works as Christ did.

And indeed, no where in catholic theology is it argued that WORKS ALONE is a path to heaven. You must have faith, and faith naturally leads to good works, and indeed good works is often a path to faith, but it is only in faith that you can earn your place in the kingdom of heaven.

According to catholic doctrine, anyway.

Except you are never supposed to do Bible study from a commentary and grown men and the church give you an oral commentary.
There are men like Henry Morris, Dr. Norman Geisler and Dr. Ron Rhoades who have shed light on the passage.

And then I was sick and I suppose God was letting me be sick so I couldn't sleep and I stayed up studying it all night for a couple weeks after studying it for years.

The current understanding of those verses is wrong and I can prove you wrong because you are basing it on assumptions and possible translation problems.

Do you want to bet your life on wrong theology? Start reading it for yourself instead of letting others read the meaning into it for you.

I want to put a book out on it but most people don't read doctrinal books these days so I guess it won't be a bestseller but I can bet that there may be some consequences as some people will label me a heretic while others will misuse the information.

 

[TheLibertonian]

Except you are never supposed to do Bible study from a commentary and grown men and the church give you an oral commentary.
There are men like Henry Morris, Dr. Norman Geisler and Dr. Ron Rhoades who have shed light on the passage.

And then I was sick and I suppose God was letting me be sick so I couldn't sleep and I stayed up studying it all night for a couple weeks after studying it for years.

The current understanding of those verses is wrong and I can prove you wrong because you are basing it on assumptions and possible translation problems.

Do you want to bet your life on wrong theology? Start reading it for yourself instead of letting others read the meaning into it for you.

I want to put a book out on it but most people don't read doctrinal books these days so I guess it won't be a bestseller but I can bet that there may be some consequences as some people will label me a heretic while others will misuse the information.

If you're never supposed to do bible study from a commentary, why are you quoting Henry Morris, Norman Geisler, and Ron Rhoades? Indeed, do you think there should be no priest in a congregation? That every man or woman should interpret the bible as they will WITHOUT discussing it with others?

Indeed, isn't your whole arguement that I need to stop 'letting others read the meaning into it for you", while insisting that YOUR way is the correct way?

See, the word heretic doesn't really mean anything anymore. Heretic only works when you have some sort of central theology, and the protestant reformation shattered that.

I'm not catholic, ChuckT, nor was I raised Catholic, nor have I ever been to a catholic mass, nor have I been baptized nor taken communion. In truth I've been to more protestant masses then catholic, and that's because I had to for my time in the Boy Scouts. No Catholic priest instructed me on what is good.

What I did was sit down, and looked at the words that Jesus said. To be kind to others; to help those who need help; to think of others before myself; to cherish life; to not judge; to be humble.

I'm not a Christian, though. I don't believe in Christ the Messiah, nor as my personal savior. Nor am I a deist or monotheist. I don't believe in the Abrahamic version of God, nor any of the other religions, really. I don't deny that their may be a being or being of some other dimension that might sit in such a position. But I do believe in the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, a historical religious figure and philosopher who said some things I can really really get behind. The bible to me is not holy scripture, it's a source of wisdom written by humanity over hundreds of years. Much as I know that Buddha was a man, and so was Lao Tzu and Confucious, as was Voltaire and Ben Franklin.

What drives me is not fear of heavenly wrath or hellish retribution. What drives me is the question, from when I wake up in the morning or go to bed at night, "am I leaving the world a better place then how I found it?".

If Hell is real, if whatever very specific form of Christianity you act as a messenger for is correct, and I am damned to hell, then I accept my fate. It's not ME I'm worried about. If I must be committed to hell for feeding the hungry, for clothing the poor, for bringing some small happiness to some other person, then I accept my fate, because I know I have left the world just a small bit better then it was.

Some men and women are Great People. Whose ideas can shape eras. Jesus was such a man. The Buddha was such a man. Muhammad was such a man. Keep in mind "great" =/= "good".

I'm not such a man. I am a small man, living a small existence, but I work within that existence to help others as I may.

But, the thing is, I'm a failure at it. To fail is human. I can ALWAYS do better. I could always be kinder, gentler, funnier, more friendly. So I strive constantly to try and improve myself so that other peoples lives are better when they come into contact with me.

To me, what it sounds like is that you believe you have found perfection in faith. That you are chosen and thus need not worry about others, for your fate is sealed. To me that not only seems the height of hubris, but also directly against the words that Jesus spoke. To argue that good works are unchristian is, from my perspective, unchristian. What can be more Christian then helping others? It is not by faith, nor works alone, that a man gets into heaven, but by both expressing his faith through his works of charity, kindness, and forgiveness.

Ironically, the reason I'm so good at arguing theology is because I often have to defend the concept of religion itself from militant atheist who are like, as Einstein said, "slaves who can still feel their chains".

 

[Chuckt]

To me, what it sounds like is that you believe you have found perfection in faith. That you are chosen and thus need not worry about others, for your fate is sealed. To me that not only seems the height of hubris, but also directly against the words that Jesus spoke. To argue that good works are unchristian is, from my perspective, unchristian. What can be more Christian then helping others? It is not by faith, nor works alone, that a man gets into heaven, but by both expressing his faith through his works of charity, kindness, and forgiveness.

I am very concerned about it.

My Jewish neighbor didn't think it was her responsibility to save the world which is partly wrong theologically but correct in the Old Testament sense. She viewed it was her responsibility to love her neighbor and if everyone loved their neighbor then we wouldn't have all the pain and suffering from the homeless, etc. because everyone in theory would be taken care of.

The fact is today that it takes several families to take care of one homeless person in a sense because the economic burden puts that much stress on someone and in some ways people just need an address to get welfare or benefits whereas sometimes I think that some homeless people are running from the law which are being helped and some feel that begging is easier than working because I can stand on a street corner and someone can give me money instead of work. There are a lot of addicts that pay their rent like that.. In a sense, giving them money equals empowering them to stay addicted and not working or cleaning themselves up.

And basically the question from Christian psychologists have asked, what do the poor need from you once they are well and the answer is "nothing". Sometimes God uses situations to make people look to Him and if we fight everyone's battle then they don't learn how to take care of themselves. I'm constantly the help desk for people who need help but part of the problem is that people want the deacon of the church to go to the pharmacy to get them refills on their medicine in a sense to use them instead of getting it themselves when they can.

There is enough wealth in this country to take care of everyone but it won't save people from hell.

We can talk more about it.

 

[Bird Dog]

If you're never supposed to do bible study from a commentary, why are you quoting Henry Morris, Norman Geisler, and Ron Rhoades? Indeed, do you think there should be no priest in a congregation? That every man or woman should interpret the bible as they will WITHOUT discussing it with others?

Indeed, isn't your whole arguement that I need to stop 'letting others read the meaning into it for you", while insisting that YOUR way is the correct way?

See, the word heretic doesn't really mean anything anymore. Heretic only works when you have some sort of central theology, and the protestant reformation shattered that.

I'm not catholic, ChuckT, nor was I raised Catholic, nor have I ever been to a catholic mass, nor have I been baptized nor taken communion. In truth I've been to more protestant masses then catholic, and that's because I had to for my time in the Boy Scouts. No Catholic priest instructed me on what is good.

What I did was sit down, and looked at the words that Jesus said. To be kind to others; to help those who need help; to think of others before myself; to cherish life; to not judge; to be humble.

I'm not a Christian, though. I don't believe in Christ the Messiah, nor as my personal savior. Nor am I a deist or monotheist. I don't believe in the Abrahamic version of God, nor any of the other religions, really. I don't deny that their may be a being or being of some other dimension that might sit in such a position. But I do believe in the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, a historical religious figure and philosopher who said some things I can really really get behind. The bible to me is not holy scripture, it's a source of wisdom written by humanity over hundreds of years. Much as I know that Buddha was a man, and so was Lao Tzu and Confucious, as was Voltaire and Ben Franklin.

What drives me is not fear of heavenly wrath or hellish retribution. What drives me is the question, from when I wake up in the morning or go to bed at night, "am I leaving the world a better place then how I found it?".

If Hell is real, if whatever very specific form of Christianity you act as a messenger for is correct, and I am damned to hell, then I accept my fate. It's not ME I'm worried about. If I must be committed to hell for feeding the hungry, for clothing the poor, for bringing some small happiness to some other person, then I accept my fate, because I know I have left the world just a small bit better then it was.

Some men and women are Great People. Whose ideas can shape eras. Jesus was such a man. The Buddha was such a man. Muhammad was such a man. Keep in mind "great" =/= "good".

I'm not such a man. I am a small man, living a small existence, but I work within that existence to help others as I may.

But, the thing is, I'm a failure at it. To fail is human. I can ALWAYS do better. I could always be kinder, gentler, funnier, more friendly. So I strive constantly to try and improve myself so that other peoples lives are better when they come into contact with me.

To me, what it sounds like is that you believe you have found perfection in faith. That you are chosen and thus need not worry about others, for your fate is sealed. To me that not only seems the height of hubris, but also directly against the words that Jesus spoke. To argue that good works are unchristian is, from my perspective, unchristian. What can be more Christian then helping others? It is by faith, nor works alone, that a man gets into heaven, but by both expressing his faith through his works of charity, kindness, and forgiveness.

Ironically, the reason I'm so good at arguing theology is because I often have to defend the concept of religion itself from militant atheist who are like, as Einstein said, "slaves who can still feel their chains".

May God Bless you...well written.....

 

[cheezgrits]

If you're never supposed to do bible study from a commentary, why are you quoting Henry Morris, Norman Geisler, and Ron Rhoades? Indeed, do you think there should be no priest in a congregation? That every man or woman should interpret the bible as they will WITHOUT discussing it with others?

Indeed, isn't your whole arguement that I need to stop 'letting others read the meaning into it for you", while insisting that YOUR way is the correct way?

See, the word heretic doesn't really mean anything anymore. Heretic only works when you have some sort of central theology, and the protestant reformation shattered that.

I'm not catholic, ChuckT, nor was I raised Catholic, nor have I ever been to a catholic mass, nor have I been baptized nor taken communion. In truth I've been to more protestant masses then catholic, and that's because I had to for my time in the Boy Scouts. No Catholic priest instructed me on what is good.

What I did was sit down, and looked at the words that Jesus said. To be kind to others; to help those who need help; to think of others before myself; to cherish life; to not judge; to be humble.

I'm not a Christian, though. I don't believe in Christ the Messiah, nor as my personal savior. Nor am I a deist or monotheist. I don't believe in the Abrahamic version of God, nor any of the other religions, really. I don't deny that their may be a being or being of some other dimension that might sit in such a position. But I do believe in the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, a historical religious figure and philosopher who said some things I can really really get behind. The bible to me is not holy scripture, it's a source of wisdom written by humanity over hundreds of years. Much as I know that Buddha was a man, and so was Lao Tzu and Confucious, as was Voltaire and Ben Franklin.

What drives me is not fear of heavenly wrath or hellish retribution. What drives me is the question, from when I wake up in the morning or go to bed at night, "am I leaving the world a better place then how I found it?".

If Hell is real, if whatever very specific form of Christianity you act as a messenger for is correct, and I am damned to hell, then I accept my fate. It's not ME I'm worried about. If I must be committed to hell for feeding the hungry, for clothing the poor, for bringing some small happiness to some other person, then I accept my fate, because I know I have left the world just a small bit better then it was.

Some men and women are Great People. Whose ideas can shape eras. Jesus was such a man. The Buddha was such a man. Muhammad was such a man. Keep in mind "great" =/= "good".

I'm not such a man. I am a small man, living a small existence, but I work within that existence to help others as I may.

But, the thing is, I'm a failure at it. To fail is human. I can ALWAYS do better. I could always be kinder, gentler, funnier, more friendly. So I strive constantly to try and improve myself so that other peoples lives are better when they come into contact with me.

To me, what it sounds like is that you believe you have found perfection in faith. That you are chosen and thus need not worry about others, for your fate is sealed. To me that not only seems the height of hubris, but also directly against the words that Jesus spoke. To argue that good works are unchristian is, from my perspective, unchristian. What can be more Christian then helping others? It is not by faith, nor works alone, that a man gets into heaven, but by both expressing his faith through his works of charity, kindness, and forgiveness.

Ironically, the reason I'm so good at arguing theology is because I often have to defend the concept of religion itself from militant atheist who are like, as Einstein said, "slaves who can still feel their chains".

I don't know who you are, but you are my hero. That should end all the silly debates in this forum. You summed up exactly how I feel but i certainly couldn't put it that elegantly. Well said. You are wiser than you give yourself credit for.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

What drives me is not fear of heavenly wrath or hellish retribution. What drives me is the question, from when I wake up in the morning or go to bed at night, "am I leaving the world a better place then how I found it?"

Well said. YOLO!

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness. Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them." ― Dalai Lama XIV

“To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; To appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

[Radiant1]

What drives me is not fear of heavenly wrath or hellish retribution. What drives me is the question, from when I wake up in the morning or go to bed at night, "am I leaving the world a better place then how I found it?"

Well said. YOLO!

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness. Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them." ― Dalai Lama XIV

“To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; To appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

You know I luv ya , but if this is the case with you then why are you often condescending and contemptibly obnoxious?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

What drives me is not fear of heavenly wrath or hellish retribution. What drives me is the question, from when I wake up in the morning or go to bed at night, "am I leaving the world a better place then how I found it?"

You know I luv ya , but if this is the case with you then why are you often condescending and contemptibly obnoxious?

You're right, I'll try to be better.

Headed to Manhattan tomorrow, looking forward to celebrating Isaac Newton's Birthday! And the New Year!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!