What is Islam?

[Pushrod]

I did, this link seems to belie your information

Thanks Nucklesack, you saved me the work. But, yes, that is how I remember the history of that region. Meelak, someone has been blowing smoke up your @ss about Palestine.

-The Proud Infidel

 

[meelak]

Jesus was in no way foretelling the coming of Mohamed. Why would a man have to come to save humanity when God had come? A man could do something God could not? According to Islamic understanding, but not according to Christian understanding.

Jesus paid the price for everyone sins as long as you accept the gift of God. If you don't, ...

Again, you show your ignorance of Biblical understanding.

Since Jesus is God come as man, the Son of Man, He is fully God and man. He had to lay down His God-ship to die. All part of the plan of salvation. If He had not laid down His God-ship, He would not have died. If He had not died, our sins would still be unforgiven. After He died, He was put in a tomb. He rose from the dead on the third day. By that, He proved his God-ship by taking up His life again.

Trust me 2ndAmendment, when I read this post you have no idea how hard I laughed. Yours is the first religion that I have come across where the a) "He had to lay down his God-ship" b) where a god has to "die" c) if the god does not die, then the people's sins would not be forgotten.

Please 2ndAmendment, don't be this confused about your religion. Go to the source and not the translated and concocted versions - you will see the truth.

Did you read my quote from Matthew 7, in the second coming, Jesus will tell the christian to get away and he will not recognize the christians. Because the christians will go to him and say, "Lord", "Lord", didn't we do miracles in thy name, etc. and Jesus will say, "Get away you men of iniquity". He will not say this to muslims because we have correctly recognized him as the prophet or messayah. Because the christians seeing his miracles incorrectly called him god, he is going to reject that and not associate with them in the second coming.

 

[itsbob]

Pushrod,
Please do a google search and look at the map of Palestine before 1940s - you will known what I mean. They were not a bunch of immigrants. It was actually the other way. When Europe drew the jews out, the muslims in palestine opened their doors and shared their lands and slowly the jews started building smaller institutions to cater to the needs of the jews in Palestine funded by america and then they claimed sovereignity on the Palestine lands. Please go back and read history and have your facts right about Palestine. If somebody lets you stay in their house for some time - you cannot turn around and claim the house to be yours. That is morally incorrect.

I thought Palestine was split by the Jordan River.. Jews were allowed to live West of the jordan River and the Palestinians the East (TransJordan).. The jews were relegated to about 25% of the country to live in..

and the country being named Palestine is misleading by today's terms. it was not to be the country of the Palestinians, but the country of the Israelites or Jews.. It later had to be split with Israel getting the short end or 25% of the stick yet again.. The other 75% in the end becoming Jordan..

 

[itsbob]

Under the terms of the Mandate, Britain's principal obligation was to facilitate the implementation of the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, which pledged "the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people."(2) No territorial restrictions whatsoever - neither east nor west of the Jordan River were placed on the Jewish National Home. In fact, the Mandate stipulated that Britain was to "facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage close settlement by Jews on the land."(3)

SO this brings us back to 1917 and the Establishment of Palestine to facilitate the Jewish..

SO if the Israelites agree to Saudi's terms, Jordan would have to abdicate to Israel..

 

[meelak]

The quote is your friend in forums.

Why? We wanted to. Period. Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it.

Exactly. Finally it came from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear this from you. It is this basic arrogance that the people have started to hate us and we have lost our standing in the world.

Imagine when some other country or race gets more powerful in the world and treat you in the biased way and take away your land and say "Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it". Will you not fight them??? Let me see if you can truthfully answer this - from your conscience. I don't need your answer. Now I am convinced you have seen my point and see the other side of the story.

Thanks for this post.

 

[meelak]

2ndAmendment,
There is no concept of Savior, priest or rabbi whom we can tell our sins and they are forgiven. Islam preaches people to have direct relationship with god. We don't need the middlemen. Think about it - god created you and you are answerable to god. Why do you need middle men. That whole concept of middlemen is not right. So, believe in god and have directly sincere relationship with god - you will do good.

 

[meelak]

How much $$ flowed into the Tsunami zone from America? Billions.
How much came in from Moslem countries: a trickle.
Tell me all about your charity...you won't even give to fellow moslems in need, instead, there was a condemnation of the dead because they were catering to western tourists and thus Allah punished them.

Very charitable.

Hussain, I had decided to ignore your posts. But this one I have to respond because it sounded very naive.

Do you know anything about how the charity process works across nations. When a nation says they are sending so much in charity, etc. Only 5 or 10% of that really goes to the receiving party as the money. The rest comes as either trade subsidies or construction projects for their companies or in other forms. And when nations declare the charity there are some conditions associated with it. It is not entirely unconditional money.

As far as the tsunami charity, whatever US gave as charity more than that was given by Saudi Arabia alone (just by one country). You will not see the charity of the islamic countries coming into the news because in islam if you give charity you get rewards. But you get double the rewards if the charity is not openly announced in public to get publicity or notoriety. This is because we don't want to make the receiver feel he/she is being looked upon in a pitiful way. Whenever I give charity, I don't even share it with my wife or children how much I gave - even though those are considerably bigger amounts.

Qur'an 2:271 "If you do deeds of charity openly, it is well; but if you bestow it upon the needy in secret, it will be even better for you, and it will atone for some of your bad deeds. And God is aware of all that you do."

This is why you won't see the charity work that the islamic countries are doing mentioned in the news. Don't you think it is in the better interest of the needy if he/she is not identified as the one receiving the charity.

 

[meelak]

Meelak,
So you are saying you are at war with the non-Muslims, and this is the reason for the atrocities that we are seeing today? This I can believe.

You're still avoiding my question about why Islam as a whole (especially the leaders of the Muslim communities) haven't stood up and called for a Jihad against the so-called rogue Muslims giving the rest of you "good" Muslims a black eye with their terrorist actions against civilians, both Muslim and Infidel.

Also, I'm not trying to say Christianity is a better religion or makes more sense than the Islamic religion, I just don't see large factions of Christians out there bombing, beheading and otherwise murdering untold numbers of people at this time. And when a rogue group of non-Muslim people do commit such attrocities, you would see the entire christian/agnostic/atheist population come together to put a stop to it. I haven't seen that yet in the Muslim world.

I don't "hate" all Muslims, but right now I consider all Muslims my enemy. There is a distinction. If what you call the "vocal" minority ever ceases their rhetoric and makes peace with all religions\non-religions of the world and vows to live side by side with them without restrictions, and ceases this senseless TERRORISM, then they would cease to be my enemy.

Pushrod,
You didn't read my previous posts. When we as the most civilized nation in the whole world, freedom loving and the most unbiased people stand up and say "Tough life. Life isn't fair. Get used to it", we are passing the message of arrogance and bias. They perceive that as hypocry and start to hate us. I am sure you work for somebody. If your manager does not give you any raise and gives another colleague of yours a hefty raise and not just once it happens all the time, you are going to perceive this manager as biased. We call it discrimination. Discrimination is part of the law in US when it comes to employment, housing, education, etc. But when it comes to people outside this country, we can freely discriminate against anybody we like. What kind of image do you think it will leave if you are on the receiving end.

Answering your second question - as I stated in my earlier posts. When people are faced with the choice of going through the daily struggles to make ends meet and provide to their family or go out participate in those symposiums, fatwas denouncing the bad things some of them are doing, as a responsible father or son with a family to feed which option are you more likely to take? You and me have all the free time and we are able to discuss these issues at leisure - but some of the less priveleged people have to work more than 12 hours a day to earn the minimum wages. Where is the motivation, time, money to spend in the common cause. We have to be practical.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Exactly. Finally it came from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear this from you. It is this basic arrogance that the people have started to hate us and we have lost our standing in the world.

Imagine when some other country or race gets more powerful in the world and treat you in the biased way and take away your land and say "Tough zots. Life isn't fair. Get over it". Will you not fight them??? Let me see if you can truthfully answer this - from your conscience. I don't need your answer. Now I am convinced you have seen my point and see the other side of the story.

Thanks for this post.

Sorry. I guess I have to respond to this. Hate say I'm gone and then retract, but ...

You are arrogant beyond words meelak. It is this attitude that you show and the fact that through immigration, Islam is growing so fast, that I and many like me are pressing to have our borders closed completely for a while and then only selectively reopened for immigration.

I do not want Muslims in the U.S. Military because you have an allegiance that is not to the U.S. but to Islam. If the U.S. goes to war with the Islamic states of the world, and it just might happen, Muslims in the U.S. military can not be depended on. The U.S. military has paved the road to the demise of the United States from within. It will happen. I am certain of it.

I know people who are Muslim. We are cordial. I do not trust them any farther than I can throw a full grown elephant.

 

[meelak]

I did, this link seems to belie your information

Nucklesack,
Please don't look at the map a high school student created for his exams.

1) Here is a link from Jerusalem Archives. You will see how Palestine at that time included more than what is now Israel and Jordan

http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/period3/3-5.html

2) Here is the history of Palestine. You will see that the jewish population in Palestine was 0.5% in 1895

http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm

3) The following link will tell you how year over year Palestine was slowly stolen under the very international eyes.

http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

4) Here is the link from the United Nations with complete history.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument

Just put "Palestine" and see what our own Wikipedia says about its history and how big was the land of Palestine. Here is the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

We all are humans and it is okay to make mistakes but to recognize your mistake and make reconciliation is the best thing any human being can do.

 

[meelak]

Meelak,
Let me gather some information on this. I'm out of time for today, but I will get back to this tomorrow. It is an enlightening exchange.

Pushrod,
Since you are interested, in my previous post, have pasted several links about the history and the geographical map of Palestine. Go through that and let me know what you think.

 

[Larry Gude]

Another question to ignore...

...what denomination are you new folks?

 

[Kain99]

Kain,
It is very bad and low of the lowest to misquote the scripture. Here are the same verses you quoted above,

9:28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

This verse refers to the idolators and not the christians or the jews.

9:29 Reason against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Reasoning, debating, challenging is also a form of non-physical fight that people can undertake to share the message. And the verse says only against some among the people who have been given the scripture. In other words, some among the christians or the jews or the muslims there are people who do not follow the god - and to them you have to reason.

9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

When god sends the scripture with the criterion of the right and the wrong and they go against god and call the mortal human beings as god - then god's wrath will be upon them. What is wrong in that.

47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

47:4 is a long verse and how conveniently you just pasted the portion you wanted people to see. This verse clearly says, when you meet in the battle - you see how the verse asks muslims to use grace or ransom after the war. Also, when you read the verses - read them in context. If you just isolate a verse by itself and read you will be missing the context.

I received my information from the web. I will be the first to admit, I haven't read the Quran'.

I apologize for misquotes.... It's just, Fear is an awesome entity.

 

[PJay]

You did good Kain, why just a few post back Meelak recommended that we search the internet for the real truth.

 

[Hessian]

remember Kain...

You won't be able to read the Koran because any translation from the blessed language of Arabic is corrupted. So, better sign up for those courses.

So now Meelak gets to impersonate the Wisened professor while everyone else needs to pay attention and lose our naivete'. Thank Allah oh Blessed one for condescending to our lowly level and instucting us. We infidels deserve nothing but Camel dung in your enlightened presence.

Since you are so wise...could you go back and address these statements I made earlier?

"Disprove this:
*Do you believe Jews were warned ahead of the 9/11 attacks?
*Are you hoping in the return of the Mahdi? (to avenge all the wrongs done against Islam)...is he Jesus???, what is he doing down a well for 2000 years?
*Do you believe Sha'ara law should be imposed on the United States and the sooner the better?
*The best thing for the middle east is the temporary framework of democracy to be installed because then the people will vote to replace it with an Imam based theocracy.
*The crimes in Chechnya, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, etc should always have tougher penalties on the Christian instigators who come there as "people of the book" and try to deceive children and women away from the One true Faith of Islam. Mercy belongs only to those who adhere to Mohammed's teachings.
*You will never call or write the Saudi embassy demanding they halt the publication of school books portraying the Jews as blood-drinking descendents of monkeys. Some of which are in the Islamic schools near DC.

Do you have a projection date when most of Europe will fall under Sha'ria law?
15...20 years maybe? What will it be like to retake Spain? What will you do to the Vatican? The same thing you did to the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople?
All the paintings in all the museums must be covered or face the same fate as the Buddhas in Afghanistan? (boom!)
The idea of conquest is in your blood, you can feel it can't you? The centuries of waiting are over...

 

[Kain99]

You did good Kain, why just a few post back Meelak recommended that we search the internet for the real truth.

Well then in that case.....I win!!!!

 

[FromTexas]

Nucklesack,
Please don't look at the map a high school student created for his exams.

1) Here is a link from Jerusalem Archives. You will see how Palestine at that time included more than what is now Israel and Jordan

http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/period3/3-5.html

2) Here is the history of Palestine. You will see that the jewish population in Palestine was 0.5% in 1895

http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm

3) The following link will tell you how year over year Palestine was slowly stolen under the very international eyes.

http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

4) Here is the link from the United Nations with complete history.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d!OpenDocument

Just put "Palestine" and see what our own Wikipedia says about its history and how big was the land of Palestine. Here is the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

We all are humans and it is okay to make mistakes but to recognize your mistake and make reconciliation is the best thing any human being can do.

The land of Palestine included Jordan. Jordan is still there. The only thing missing from the original largess of "Palestine" is a sliver of its original land that they lost for getting beligerent towards Israel. Why would it be that the British got a right to decide how that land was divided? Hmmmmm... Maybe a major war where they decided to side with the Central Powers. Oh, and who, under that British authority, had the west bank first?

Maybe if the Palestinian had not listened to the warmongering Middle Eastern nations surrounding Israel, they would have still been living in relative peace with Israel. The Palestinians made their own bed and now they must live in it.

In fact, the British could have even given over part of Jordan as part of the Jewish homeland. They did not despite being allowed to by the Balfour Declaration. So, Palestine and other countries are crying over a supposed wrong that they more then accepted under treaties of the time because they can't just suck it up. The portion they are crying over is less than 15% of the entire original territory that was offered up to be divided. They got 85% of the lands. Well, guess what, they start fighting back and treating you like dirt when you try to kill them for so many years. The Palestinians and others were the first to turn it violent.

 

[FromTexas]

Oh, by the way, which of all the different empires who owned the land should be allowed to come back and claim it now by your definition of "it used to be part of this, so it should be theirs again"? Should we give it to the Ptolemics, Jewish, Ottomans, etc...?

 

[Pete]

Exactly. Finally it came from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear this from you. It is this basic arrogance that the people have started to hate us and we have lost our standing in the world.

Oh please, people hate you and you lost your standing because of your people blowing up pizza parlors, buses, wedding receptions, killing women and children, embasies, hostage taking, beheadings, high jacking planes trains and ships, dancing in the streets at the slightest misfortune that befalls the west. Get over the victimhood, grow up and purge the barbarians then come to the table. Your doubletalk is tiresome.

 

[Penn]

Oh please, people hate you and you lost your standing because of your people blowing up pizza parlors, buses, wedding receptions, killing women and children, embasies, hostage taking, beheadings, high jacking planes trains and ships, dancing in the streets at the slightest misfortune that befalls the west. Get over the victimhood, grow up and purge the barbarians then come to the table. Your doubletalk is tiresome.

Can I get a brotha to say "Amen"?


PS: When was the last time you heard Al-Jazeera in a telecast fervently condemning the terrorist killing and beheading of innocent civilians?

If the Qu-ran forbids the coerced conversions of non-believers of Allah, why didn't we hear their bellowing cry against the forced converting of the FOX News journalist - Steve Centani -and his camera man?



Where was their outrage?