What is Islam?

[meelak]

SO this brings us back to 1917 and the Establishment of Palestine to facilitate the Jewish..

SO if the Israelites agree to Saudi's terms, Jordan would have to abdicate to Israel..

I guess you did not see the maps I posted of the 1800s and the early 1900s. Israel was not even on the map. So, as per your suggestion, if they go back, all that land should be called Palestine.

 

[meelak]

Oh, by the way, which of all the different empires who owned the land should be allowed to come back and claim it now by your definition of "it used to be part of this, so it should be theirs again"? Should we give it to the Ptolemics, Jewish, Ottomans, etc...?

If it was won by war - it is a different story. Here there was no war. Slowly, when europe was driving them out, they came in truck loads and settled and all of a sudden, it is their land. Do you see it is a different story here?

 

[meelak]

There ya go. I fixed that all up for you, for accuracy.



Christians are not bound by Old Testament Laws - courtesy of Christ Jesus. We just keep the Old Testament around because we like to read all the nifty prophecies of Jesus which were written way before he was born.




Actually, we just had a long discussion about this very subject a few weeks ago in here.

This is very enlightening. Even from their own religious scripture people think it is okay to pick and choose what they will comply and what they will not comply with. By saying what you said above, you are making a mockery of your own faith.

 

[meelak]

The clergy may not have political power but they have influencial power and use their "preaching" to twist words of the Quran so their own political views are expressed. If the clergy do not have power to influence Muslims, then why is it that the leaders of services are having the congregations chanting "Death To America"? It is just a shame that the US is not getting direct broadcasts of Iraqi Tv...

Perhaps my understanding of all this is off....i would like you to argue some of the points Glenn Beck has brought to light as well in regards to Islam and the Clergy.... www.glennbeck.com

Here we go again, just by looking at one TV program for an hour a day you think you are going to get the total un-biased view of one religion and its followers - I feel sorry for you.

 

[meelak]

Sorry Homesick, y'all have to get by with ham sandwhiches, I'm on a budget you know! 1.4 billion, damn, I need more ammo.

kidding aside

They still have not answered the most asked question on this thread yet, as why the religious leaders (clerics) are not standing up in mass and condemning the actions of the terrorist and calling for their heads!?

This has been answered over and over and over and over again. How do you know the clerics are not standing up and preaching against terrorism when you are only seeing your CNN, FOX, ABC, etc. When our media is looking for only the negatives and showing them and brushing aside the positive efforts from other people as if that is not important to share at all.

For example, the most influential cleric in his Haj sermon addressing 2.5 to 3.0 million people in one gathering in Mecca last year gave the following sermon and asked people to shun terrorism and not support militants. Did this get shown by the media here. I can list countless other news archive links where the islamic clerics have stood up against terrorism and militancy. Let me know if you are interested.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,11599,1394920,00.html

Just go beyond our regular CNN, FOX, ABC, MSN, etc. you will get the real un-biased news.

Look at the following statements from powerful clerics against terrorism.

http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2649


So, now do you feel this question has been answered???

 

[meelak]

I am currently reading a For Dummies book about the history of the Middle East. Very interesting stuff.

Very good start. Happy reading!!!

Once you see the facts you will know what I am talking about. The sad thing is that we cannot do anything about it.

 

[vraiblonde]

This is very enlightening. Even from their own religious scripture people think it is okay to pick and choose what they will comply and what they will not comply with. By saying what you said above, you are making a mockery of your own faith.

This is not picking and choosing - it's the fundamental basis for Christianity. Nor is it a mockery, because the Christian faith is based of belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

You want people to respect your religion, but you do not seem very willing to reciprocate.

 

[vraiblonde]

Once you see the facts you will know what I am talking about.

So far it's not looking real good for the Arabs.

 

[Toxick]

Even from their own religious scripture people think it is okay to pick and choose what they will comply and what they will not comply with.

If I may, this is a completely inaccurate and 100% false statement.

There is no picking and choosing.


That Jesus freed us from the Old Covenant is the ENTIRE FOUNDATION of Christianity. That's why the The Christian Bible is divided into two books called "The OLD Testament" and "The NEW Testament". The implication is that the New Testament and its laws override the Old Testament and its laws. There is no picking and choosing involved. I strive to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Period. ALL of them - with no picking and choosing.


I suppose, that if you don't believe in Original Sin, and the need for salvation, along with the death and resurrection of Christ, this dividing line between the Old and the New Testaments would not make much of a difference to you.


To a Christian, however, it makes ALL the difference.

By saying what you said above, you are making a mockery of your own faith.

Well, I'm not going to lose sleep because you think that. You also say that Christians engage in polytheism even after you have been point blank TOLD that it's not true, by at least two practicing Christians.


I assume you came here to gain understanding of our religion - as well as promote an understanding of your own. Even though I have not been highly active in my participation in this thread, I have been reading and thinking seriously about what you and abdulhaqq have said, and I think I understand your religion a little better. I'm even planning on rereading the Koran more thoroughly - not because I'm thinking about converting, but to further my understanding.


As for gaining an understanding of Christianity, it is apparent that you've made no progress. I suppose can understand that - based on the amount of vitriol and venom that have been spewed in your direction over the past few days. However, I would not presume to tell you what you believe, based on my admittedly meeger understanding of Islam. I will kindly appreciate it if you would offer me the same courtesy.

 

[meelak]

This is not picking and choosing - it's the fundamental basis for Christianity. Nor is it a mockery, because the Christian faith is based of belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

You want people to respect your religion, but you do not seem very willing to reciprocate.

If the bible says don't eat the port, if I am a christian then I must not eat it. If I say, I will go ahead and do it because it is not applicable to me or I don't believe in that edict, then I am making fun of god's words. What else can you call it?

 

[RoseRed]

If the bible says don't eat the port, if I am a christian then I must not eat it. If I say, I will go ahead and do it because it is not applicable to me or I don't believe in that edict, then I am making fun of god's words. What else can you call it?

I usually drink my port.

 

[meelak]

So far it's not looking real good for the Arabs.

Exactly. If you pick up a book written by one side - you are going to be presented the story from their view only. Go to the authentic sources like UN, US government archives, wikipedia, etc.

 

[meelak]

If I may, this is a completely inaccurate and 100% false statement.

There is no picking and choosing.


That Jesus freed us from the Old Covenant is the ENTIRE FOUNDATION of Christianity. That's why the The Christian Bible is divided into two books called "The OLD Testament" and "The NEW Testament". The implication is that the New Testament and its laws override the Old Testament and its laws. There is no picking and choosing involved. I strive to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Period. ALL of them - with no picking and choosing.


I suppose, that if you don't believe in Original Sin, and the need for salvation, along with the death and resurrection of Christ, this dividing line between the Old and the New Testaments would not make much of a difference to you.


To a Christian, however, it makes ALL the difference.







Well, I'm not going to lose sleep because you think that. You also say that Christians engage in polytheism even after you have been point blank TOLD that it's not true, by at least two practicing Christians.


I assume you came here to gain understanding of our religion - as well as promote an understanding of your own. Even though I have not been highly active in my participation in this thread, I have been reading and thinking seriously about what you and abdulhaqq have said, and I think I understand your religion a little better. I'm even planning on rereading the Koran more thoroughly - not because I'm thinking about converting, but to further my understanding.


As for gaining an understanding of Christianity, it is apparent that you've made no progress. I suppose can understand that - based on the amount of vitriol and venom that have been spewed in your direction over the past few days. However, I would not presume to tell you what you believe, based on my admittedly meeger understanding of Islam. I will kindly appreciate it if you would offer me the same courtesy.

Just answer me a simple question. How many books are there in the christian bible? Does it include the old testament and the new testament or is only the new testament called the bible? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot include the old testaments into the bible and say, "Oh, it is not applicable to us". Then say only the new testament is the whole bible - that will make a lot of things clear interms of understanding how many books are there in the bible. Depending on which christian I ask I get a different answer.

Also, I have no disrespect for any christianity. As I stated in my earlier posts, there are several verses in the Qur'an that commands muslims to believe in that which was revealed to the last and final prophet as well as to that which was revealed to the earlier prophets. But what my point was that we do not have any right to pick and choose what we practice and not practice from the god's words. When we say we believe, we have to believe in its entirety.

 

[meelak]

Based on popular request, here it is one more time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/sto...1394920,00.html


Look at the following statements from powerful clerics against terrorism.

http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2649

 

[abdulhaqq]

Bush criticizes anti-Islam letter by official's wife

The Associated Press


November 02. 2006 6:01AM
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ST. PETERSBURG - Gov. Jeb Bush on Wednesday criticized remarks a Hernando County commissioner's wife made calling Islam a "hateful, frightening religion."

In an Oct. 23 letter to the St. Petersburg Times, Mary Ann Hogan objected to the county's assistance to a mosque celebration of the end of Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting.

"The stated goal of the Muslim faith is to kill us, the 'infidels.' By providing county employees for their use Hernando County is sanctioning this hateful, frightening religion," she wrote.

Commissioner Tom Hogan Sr., a Republican, defended his wife's comments in a story posted Wednesday on the newspaper's Web site.

"I'm not seeing that as bigotry, because I don't feel bigoted on it. It's just a matter of fact," he said.

Bush, who appointed Tom Hogan in August, condemned the couple's remarks.

"He's disappointed. He thought their comments were entirely inappropriate," said Alia Faraj, a spokeswoman for the governor.

"Florida is built on its diverse background, different cultures and religions - it's what makes Florida so strong," she said. "The Arab-Americans living in our state are just as patriotic as the rest of us."

Two other county commissioners, both Democrats, and the Tampa chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the nation's largest Islamic advocacy group, have called for Tom Hogan's resignation.

"It's an unfortunate occurrence because we are a very diverse community with people from all backgrounds and religions," said Commissioner Nancy Robinson, a Republican.

A Muslim community leader donated $200 to the county parks department to borrow some outdoor children's games, which are available to any group for a $50 deposit, said Pat Fagan, director of parks and recreation.

A county employee dropped off and picked up the games, and the department had planned to send a staffer to the celebration to help out, but a complaint from Tom Hogan prompted officials to decide it was inappropriate to use county resources to staff a religious event, Fagan said.

http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/LOCAL/211020348/1078/news

 

[Toxick]

Just answer me a simple question. How many books are there in the christian bible? Does it include the old testament and the new testament or is only the new testament called the bible?

There are two Testaments - the old and the new.

There are 39 books in the Old Testament, and there are 27 books in the New Testament.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot include

I cannot?

I can - and do.



Christian release from Mosaic law is explicitly spelled out in the following passages, and many other passages throughout the New Testament.


Christ is the end of the Law and believers are not under the Mosaic Law. New Testament believers are not under Law but under grace (Rom. 6:14).

Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith (Rom. 8:2-4).

Against such, i.e., the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law because the believer is then operating under the highest law, the standards are met as we walk by the Holy Spirit and grow in the Word (Gal. 5:22).


Those are copied verbatim from my copy of the New Testament.

You'll understand if I put more stock in the above verses, than your stubborn insistence that I'm "picking and choosing". We do not pick and choose anything. It is quite explicitly laid out for us.

Also, I have no disrespect for any christianity.

I didn't say you have disrespect for christianity. I said you have a lack of understanding of it. And nothing in this post disabuses me of that perception.

But what my point was that we do not have any right to pick and choose what we practice and not practice from the god's words. When we say we believe, we have to believe in its entirety.

Like I said to you before - we do not pick and choose which of Jesus's teachings we follow. We strive to follow them ALL.



Jesus Christ's teachings.

Thus the name Christian.

 

[Hessian]

TOX...et al.

Muhammed created his collection of beliefs from elements of the culture he lived in...
a) The worshipping of Black stones was not uncommon in his day or before: There was a black stone at Byblos and altars were buils around them Aparrently the stone at Kaaba used to have numerous altars provided by the Arabian tribes...and gues what: that was the direction they used to pray in...gee, sound familiar?

b) Dominent diety of the era: Al-ilah: the moon. and thus the crescent moon enters heavily in muslim symbolism, the tribe called the Sabeans were farther south in Saudi Arabia and they fasted during the crescent moon.

c) The appelation "the Merciful" also predates the creation of "Allah"...common in its attachment to the moon diety.

d) Mohammed's early wanderings took him up the peninsula and put him contact with numerous caravans bring goods from Eithiopia, Persia, and Palestine. it is here that he got an incomplete education on bits of the OT and some mixed early Christian teachings...this naturally forms his early opinions and he tried to mix in a few ideas with his pagan roots.

e) The moody wanderings in his 40th year allowed him an encounter with "Gabriel" who confronted him and forced him to read a proclamation. I suppose this is not unlike Joseph Smith getting his tablets of Gold in western NY and was again oddly ordered to "READ!"

f) In an attempt to win over reluctant elite of Mecca to his new found revelations...he condemned the idols hanging around the Kaaba and threatened destruction on all unbelievers but he also settled on a compromise; they would be allowed to keep three of the moon's daughters: al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat because they could intercede to Allah on behalf of the "faithful."...later this is recanted and labeled the "satanic verses."
Alas...it was to no avail...He was still mocked and then persecuted-so he fled.

g) In 619 Mohammed took a glorious flight up to Jerusalem on the back of a mule-like beast with a human head...prayed, then visited the 7 heavens (no..not 7-Elevens) followed by a nice encounter with many previous prophets from the OT and of course Jesus. Of course from here he had a personal interview with the moon himself (Allah). (Koran 17:1)
THIS little trip was supposed to bring him praise and awe from the "people of the book" who would naturally claim he is a prophet too....um, didn't work.

h) In the summer of 621, when his fortunes were ebbing he claimed to have a visit by 12 loyal muslims up in Yathrib. They promised to go spread his teachings...interesting regarding those "12" apostles..This is where he galvinized his followers and consolidated power...renaming the town Medina.
He needed cash to secure his power so he authorized raids on caravans (razzias) traveling between Mecca and Syria....the first three thieving raids were failures. The fourth suceeded in killing one and kidnapping two others...He demanded a ransom in silver for the two kept alive and got it.
Thus the fine tradition of kidnapping opponents is sanctioned by muhammed himself.---The raid occurred during Ramadan.
He then manages to keep 20% of all booty taken in these raids.(Koran 8:41)

i) Muhammad was able to fall upon a body of troops coming out of Mecca and capture one of his earlier critics: al-Nadir (this was the battle of Badr). and apparently the killing of prisoners was under way when Mohmmed spotted him...and beheaded him,...yes another fine tradition was begun. Immediately following a reign of terror purged the last of the "unfaithful" from Medina: Convert or die...yet another tradition was initiated. He urged his loyal followers to rid the region of critics, poets, and anyone whose prose mocked him.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I figure that a number of our Islamic brethren on here have me on "ignore" which is fine with me. But I did want to trace a number of their early practices and beliefs without going to some sheik Abu-Khaliid Sadir imam website- and getting a "glorious" verson of it.

Islam, ...a religion of pieces.

 

[Hessian]

And just to head off the countercharges...

Don't bloviate over worshipping Mary as Diana or jump on other odd practices of the catholic church...you see, we had this thing called a Reformation (celebrated 11/1) that cleaned out our practices and restructured our faith: Sola Scriptura...Built solely on the inerrant Word of God.

I think Islam should give a reformation a try...

oh but they can't: The koran is absolutely eternal and without flaw (except those darn satanic verses). AND if they return back to the original practices and behavior of Mohammed: its Jihad 24/7.

 

[abdulhaqq]

Dear Hessian,

Haha, typical of Christian missionaries: they post articles without any sort of sources. Instead of allowing their arguments to be subjected to criticism, they develop myths without any evidence to support their claims.

It doesn't really matter, each argument made above can be debunked through evidence and reason:


Reply To Robert Morey's Moon-God Allah Myth: A Look At The Archaeological Evidence

Refutation Of The Borrowing Theories Of The Qur'an

Rahmānān (RHMNN) - An Ancient South Arabian Moon God?

Please don't regurgitate information without criticizing it. Thats being intellectually dishonest.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[jetmonkey]

Exactly. If you pick up a book written by one side - you are going to be presented the story from their view only. Go to the authentic sources like UN, US government archives, wikipedia, etc.