What kind of god would send

[itsbob]

that's a hell of a lot of assumptions.

Since everyone after Adam and Eve have NOT been in the Garden, I would have to assume these people weren't either.

And they wouldn't be 'after' Adam and Eve.. but the same time as....

It's like playing the game of Risk.. or the old adage.. don't put all your eggs in the same basket..

There would have been a multitude of Gardens.. with a multitude X 2 of his created beings.. all those beings having been created, and not coming from sin would be perfect immortal beings.. Those perfect immortal beings were all tempted and lost their immortality and begat children.. who went out into the world and met the other childten begat from sin.. If I were to belive any of this, I would have to figure at LEAST one of the X 2 of the multitude did overcome the temptation.. and would still be in their "Garden of Zorb".. enjoying and basking in their immortality (they probably founded the Union, and don't have to work to maintain their lavish immortal lifestyle)

 

[hvp05]

If we are all descended from 2, isn't that inbreeding?

I once worked with a guy who believed that "Eden" was really more like God's little Bio-Dome, hidden away somewhere from the wider world. Once A & E sinned, God kicked them out into this world of ours, where other humans already existed.

 

[This_person]

If he created them they didn't come from "other people" they were created, not from sin, but created as pure as Adam and Eve.. from the dust if you will.. so that would lead me to believe that God would have set them down in their own paradise..

But, what you lead yourself to believe doesn't make sense. Since those humans were not immortal, then what would make you think otherwise?

WHY would God CREATE others under different rules, then those rules he imposed upon Adam and Eve?

Because they were human, and Adam and Eve already screwed it up for all humans. We don't know if that was in a day, a year, a thousand years, a hundred thousand years..... There's no time frame listed.

 

[This_person]

And they wouldn't be 'after' Adam and Eve.. but the same time as....

It's like playing the game of Risk.. or the old adage.. don't put all your eggs in the same basket..

There would have been a multitude of Gardens.. with a multitude X 2 of his created beings.. all those beings having been created, and not coming from sin would be perfect immortal beings.. Those perfect immortal beings were all tempted and lost their immortality and begat children.. who went out into the world and met the other childten begat from sin.. If I were to belive any of this, I would have to figure at LEAST one of the X 2 of the multitude did overcome the temptation.. and would still be in their "Garden of Zorb".. enjoying and basking in their immortality (they probably founded the Union, and don't have to work to maintain their lavish immortal lifestyle)

You have an active imagination. You should write short stories.

But, what you say is not founded in anything I've read from Genesis.

 

[itsbob]

But, what you lead yourself to believe doesn't make sense. Since those humans were not immortal, then what would make you think otherwise?Because they were human, and Adam and Eve already screwed it up for all humans. We don't know if that was in a day, a year, a thousand years, a hundred thousand years..... There's no time frame listed.

Well we KNOW Christ was born 2007 years ago..

and we KNOW that the earth is only 6000 years old.. SOOOO it would have to have been in less then a couple hundred years.. I mean to go from 2 people to couple BILLION would take more than a few years I would guess..


And there is no way you can believe Adam and Eve were the ONLY humans on the planet at that time..

 

[itsbob]

You have an active imagination. You should write short stories.

But, what you say is not founded in anything I've read from Genesis.

My point EXACTLY.. Genesis, if it tells any truth at all, doesn't tell you the whole story, only a piece of the story.. there HAD to be more humans on the earth than just Adam and Eve.. there had to be other creations made from dust.. or we'd all be walking mouth breathers drooling on our shoes.. How many generations of inbreeding does it take to make a generation of idiots?

Who did Cain marry?? Where were her parents during the time of Eden.. they weren't IN Eden, and they didn't COME from Eden so where did they come from.. the Scientologist's Space Ship maybe??

To prevent us from being mouthbreathers in less then 3 generations there HAD to be multitudes of breeding pairs in gardens throughout the world. Beings that were CREATED not born, because Adam and Eve were the FIRST created beings, and they gave birth to?? So we know these other humans weren't/ couldn't have been born, they must have been created.

 

[2ndAmendment]

My point EXACTLY.. Genesis, if it tells any truth at all, doesn't tell you the whole story, only a piece of the story.. there HAD to be more humans on the earth than just Adam and Eve.. there had to be other creations made from dust.. or we'd all be walking mouth breathers drooling on our shoes.. How many generations of inbreeding does it take to make a generation of idiots?

Who did Cain marry?? Where were her parents during the time of Eden.. they weren't IN Eden, and they didn't COME from Eden so where did they come from.. the Scientologist's Space Ship maybe??

To prevent us from being mouthbreathers in less then 3 generations there HAD to be multitudes of breeding pairs in gardens throughout the world. Beings that were CREATED not born, because Adam and Eve were the FIRST created beings, and they gave birth to?? So we know these other humans weren't/ couldn't have been born, they must have been created.

You are leaving out the perfection of God and the divine. Adam and Eve were created perfect. Their only imperfection was disobeying God. If there is no imperfection, then there is no reason for the deterioration of the human genome through marring a sister or brother. There was no commandments at that point in time except to populate the earth.

Through sin and mutation (probably caused by sin), the human genome became less perfect to the point that now inbreeding may have terrible physical and mental consequences. The results of inbreeding does not have to be undesirable. Good gene pairing could cause better attributes. The some cultures today still intermarry in the immediate family especially in the "upper" class.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well we KNOW Christ was born 2007 years ago..

and we KNOW that the earth is only 6000 years old.. SOOOO it would have to have been in less then a couple hundred years.. I mean to go from 2 people to couple BILLION would take more than a few years I would guess..


And there is no way you can believe Adam and Eve were the ONLY humans on the planet at that time..

Do the math. N = No* e^(r*t) where No is the initial population and r is the rate of growth and t is the period of time in the same units as r. The mathematical constant e is the unique real number such that the value of the derivative (slope of the tangent line) of f(x) = e^x at the point x = 0 is exactly 1.

If:
No = 2
r = 1.17% = .0117 / year : current rates in countries in the world are between -1.20% and 4.84% with the global rate of 1.17%
t = 6000 years

N = 6.144727461286839e+30

Six billion is 6,000,000,000 = 6.0e+9

So you can start with 2 and get orders of magnitude more than 6 billion. Allowing for negative growth rates during wars, famines, and plagues and God wiping out the population of the earth with the flood and starting with 8 people, which everyone seemed to have missed, 6 billion seems reasonable starting with 2 over 6000 years.

Lets do it again and according to the Jewish historian Josephus, Irish archbishop and chronologist James Ussher, and most conservative Christian scholars, the Flood of Noah's time occurred between 2500 BC and 2300 BC, so lets use 2300 BC, for the shortest time period, and 2007 for a t of 4307 and a No of 8.

No = 8
r = 1.17% or .0117
t = 4307

N = 3.0689095874049684e+22

That is still orders of magnitude more than 6 billion.

And there folks is the reason that we better be very concerned about the future. Population growth looks like this.
<img src="http://www.grifent.com//pics/popgrow5.gif" />
Without a large scale war wiping out large portions of the world population or other major world wide catastrophe, the population will rapidly out pace the food supply and famine will be the limiting factor. And wonders of wonders, what does the Bible say about the last days and the cost of food?

Revelation 6:5-6

The Third Seal--Famine
5When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come " I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

6And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."

For those that don't know, a denarius is believed by scholars to have been a Roman soldier's daily pay. So the scripture is saying that enough wheat to make a small loaf of bread will cost a days wage. If you make barley loaves, you can get enough to make three loaves.

 

[itsbob]

Do the math. N = No* e^(r*t) where No is the initial population and r is the rate of growth and t is the period of time in the same units as r. The mathematical constant e is the unique real number such that the value of the derivative (slope of the tangent line) of f(x) = e^x at the point x = 0 is exactly 1.

If:
No = 2
r = 1.17% = .0117 / year : current rates in countries in the world are between -1.20% and 4.84% with the global rate of 1.17%
t = 6000 years

N = 6.144727461286839e+30

Six billion is 6,000,000,000 = 6.0e+9

So you can start with 2 and get orders of magnitude more than 6 billion. Allowing for negative growth rates during wars, famines, and plagues and God wiping out the population of the earth with the flood and starting with 8 people, which everyone seemed to have missed, 6 billion seems reasonable starting with 2 over 6000 years.

Lets do it again and according to the Jewish historian Josephus, Irish archbishop and chronologist James Ussher, and most conservative Christian scholars, the Flood of Noah's time occurred between 2500 BC and 2300 BC, so lets use 2300 BC, for the shortest time period, and 2007 for a t of 4307 and a No of 8.

No = 8
r = 1.17% or .0117
t = 4307

N = 3.0689095874049684e+22

That is still orders of magnitude more than 6 billion.

And there folks is the reason that we better be very concerned about the future. Population growth looks like this.
<img src="http://www.grifent.com//pics/popgrow5.gif" />
Without a large scale war wiping out large portions of the world population or other major world wide catastrophe, the population will rapidly out pace the food supply and famine will be the limiting factor. And wonders of wonders, what does the Bible say about the last days and the cost of food?

For those that don't know, a denarius is believed by scholars to have been a Roman soldier's daily pay. So the scripture is saying that enough wheat to make a small loaf of bread will cost a days wage. If you make barley loaves, you can get enough to make three loaves.

Where do you input your variables??

So for example.. several million people killed due to war prior to them being able to reproduce? The plague? And when we talk about war, famine, plague we aren't talking about a small percentage of people dying, but in the millions. Sets back the growth rate just a tad..

Disease?

TOO many variables for a simple formula to be of any value.

And a current day "growth" variable has no standing for 100 years ago, let alone 6000 or a 100 million years ago.

We have a life expectancey well into the 70's, people having children into their 50's and even their 60's when in the past the life expectancey was in your 30's.. infant mortality in the past, you were lucky if your child(ren) lived to the age of 2.

And the answer to all of this 'math' is the great flood.. where are the bodies?? "Mathmeticians" believe over a BILLION people died in the great flood.. where are the skeletal remains?? People would have died EVERYwhere in the world.. bodies would have been strewn throughout the world. We should be able to find THOUSANDS of bodies in pockets where they may have settled in the Arctic.. there are just too many places in the world that would have kept a good amount of these bodies, skeletons in good enough shape.. The bog fields in Ireland and Scotland.. the mountains.. etc..

Sorry, not buying it.

 

[itsbob]

No = 8
r = 1.17% or .0117
t = 4307

N = 3.0689095874049684e+22

ANd if I read this right your formula is telling us this is how many people should be on the earth today.. some 4300 years after the Flood.. yet we don't have near that number on the planet.. the formula is flawed.

 

[2ndAmendment]

No = 8
r = 1.17% or .0117
t = 4307

N = 3.0689095874049684e+22

ANd if I read this right your formula is telling us this is how many people should be on the earth today.. some 4300 years after the Flood.. yet we don't have near that number on the planet.. the formula is flawed.

No, the formula is not flawed. It calculates population growth if there are no perturbations. There have been catastrophic reductions in the population, Gaelic Wars,Black Plague, French Revolution, U.S. Civil War, WWI, WWII, which effects the overall population. The earlier those happen, the more drastically they effect the total population.

 

[itsbob]

No, the formula is not flawed. It calculates population growth if there are no perturbations. .

Which was my point.. it's a worthless formula, too many variables that can't be accounted for.

 

[This_person]

My point EXACTLY.. Genesis, if it tells any truth at all, doesn't tell you the whole story, only a piece of the story.. there HAD to be more humans on the earth than just Adam and Eve.. there had to be other creations made from dust.. or we'd all be walking mouth breathers drooling on our shoes.. How many generations of inbreeding does it take to make a generation of idiots?

Who did Cain marry?? Where were her parents during the time of Eden.. they weren't IN Eden, and they didn't COME from Eden so where did they come from.. the Scientologist's Space Ship maybe??

To prevent us from being mouthbreathers in less then 3 generations there HAD to be multitudes of breeding pairs in gardens throughout the world. Beings that were CREATED not born, because Adam and Eve were the FIRST created beings, and they gave birth to?? So we know these other humans weren't/ couldn't have been born, they must have been created.

I agree. Genesis doesn't tell the whole story, just what you NEED to know.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Which was my point.. it's a worthless formula, too many variables that can't be accounted for.

Your original point was that 6000 years was too short a period to start with 2 people and have 6 billion on the earth today.

My point is that according to the mathematical formula used by science to calculate population of any population, cell, virus, bacteria, or human negating any outside influence, 6000 years is plenty of time to get 6 billion people starting with 2.

Therefore your original premise is wrong according to science. If you have a problem with the formula, take it up with the scientists that developed it.

 

[Xaquin44]

Your original point was that 6000 years was too short a period to start with 2 people and have 6 billion on the earth today.

My point is that according to the mathematical formula used by science to calculate population of any population, cell, virus, bacteria, or human negating any outside influence, 6000 years is plenty of time to get 6 billion people starting with 2.

Therefore your original premise is wrong according to science. If you have a problem with the formula, take it up with the scientists that developed it.

to bad there are outside variables.

why are you using science to justify faith anyway?

that kind of kills the point.

 

[2ndAmendment]

to bad there are outside variables.

why are you using science to justify faith anyway?

You are much like those that Jesus spoke of.

Matthew 11:16-19

16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,

17and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'

18"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'

19"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

You try to use science to say that those of faith are foolish, but when those of faith use science to prove you incorrect in your assumptions, then you complain that the science must be wrong or that those of faith shouldn't use science.

 

[bcp]

babies put themselves into starvation?

those jerks .... they should get up and feed themselves .... lazy bastards .... they're 2 months old. Suck it up kids.

man, what?

what god would allow things like that?

(not one I would worship)

how about this one.
if you cant afford them, dont breed them.
how about you question the parents that just keep popping them out one after another.

much easier to blame God on your bad habits isnt it? that way you dont have to take responsibility for anything you do.

are you sure you are not one of the baltimore slum dwellers? you certainly sound like one.

 

[itsbob]

You are much like those that Jesus spoke of.
You try to use science to say that those of faith are foolish, but when those of faith use science to prove you incorrect in your assumptions, then you complain that the science must be wrong or that those of faith shouldn't use science.

The formula you posted has absolutely NOTHING to do with science. It's a bogus formula that has no application in the real world. It's based on no disease, no war.. just population growth in a sterile test tube environment.

Proves nothing.

 

[2ndAmendment]

The formula you posted has absolutely NOTHING to do with science. It's a bogus formula that has no application in the real world. It's based on no disease, no war.. just population growth in a sterile test tube environment.

Proves nothing.

And you are wrong.

WORLD POPULATION
Year Population
1700 600,000,000
1800 900,000,000
1900 1,500,000,000
2000 6,000,000,000

 

[itsbob]

And you are wrong.

WORLD POPULATION
Year Population
1700 600,000,000
1800 900,000,000
1900 1,500,000,000
2000 6,000,000,000

I thought your formulas answer was 3.1e+22?? That's a LONG way from 6 Billion.