What kind of god would send

This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
Tootaloo said:
I really don't know the ins and the outs of forums and read FAR more than I post. So, I probably did it wrong! :) I recognize in your posts, my own thoughts and convictions...I have often thought that the reason God gave us the ability to have children is because we too sink entire being into loving this child that has free will. It gives us a window to Him. Our love is not conditional on the choices our kids make, but our blessings and fellowship could be. Other things you say strike me with familiarity, so...most likely I was adding to your position. Sorry if I went about it wrong...I'm new.
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No reason to be sorry, again. And, I'm sorry if I snapped at you. Welcome to a few more posts.

I just wasn't sure if we were arguing that same point with each other, or adding to what the other was saying.
 
Xaquin44

Xaquin44

New Member
This_person said:
You make a fair comparrison here. Although, all the murders aren't done by one person, or one small group of people. I was speaking to the crimes of one person - how one person's sins would be perceived by God (in my opinion). Maybe that's why I'm not coming across to you well on this issue. I wasn't speaking that an individual rape or murder is insignificant - I don't think it is. But the one person who raped one person is not the same as the one person who orders and/or orchestrates the mass murder of tens, hundreds, thousands. I was speaking to the person performing the sin, not the sin itself.
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you keep talking about the sinner and I keep talking about the victim. The sinner will get his one way or another (maybe), but no one is watching out for the victim. In some backwater country a woman is raped .... she hasn't ever heard of jesus or the bible, so she doesn't have heaven to look forward to. Why doesn't god watch out for her?

My whole arguement can easily be boiled down to 'why doesn't the god who handcrafted each atom in the earth (I like my handcrafted atom saying), stop bad things from happening?'

yes yes I know about all the fruit eating and garden leaving and all, but I didn't do any of that, and neither did you or anyone else alive today.
 
Bustem' Down

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Xaquin44 said:
you keep talking about the sinner and I keep talking about the victim. The sinner will get his one way or another (maybe), but no one is watching out for the victim. In some backwater country a woman is raped .... she hasn't ever heard of jesus or the bible, so she doesn't have heaven to look forward to. Why doesn't god watch out for her?

My whole arguement can easily be boiled down to 'why doesn't the god who handcrafted each atom in the earth (I like my handcrafted atom saying), stop bad things from happening?'

yes yes I know about all the fruit eating and garden leaving and all, but I didn't do any of that, and neither did you or anyone else alive today.
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Because then God would be a Socialist, aking sure everyone had want they needed. :shrug:
 
M

Marie

New Member
Xaquin44 said:
yes yes I know about all the fruit eating and garden leaving and all, but I didn't do any of that, and neither did you or anyone else alive today.
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But our very human nature is the same, and we would have. Our hearts are deciectfully wicked we believe our own lies. We cater to our own selfish desires. Were more interested in us than in God. Till you can relate to that, you cant get it. We live in a sin sick world with the god of this world (Satin)

Until our eyes and hearts are open we cant begin to love or apericate God.
 
Xaquin44

Xaquin44

New Member
Marie said:
But our very human nature is the same, and we would have. Our hearts are deciectfully wicked we believe our own lies. We cater to our own selfish desires. Were more interested in us than in God. Till you can relate to that, you cant get it. We live in a sin sick world with the god of this world (Satin)

Until our eyes and hearts are open we cant begin to love or apericate God.
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god made our hearts ....

adam and eve were his creations right?

eve was tempted right? and through her, adam right?

well who made their hearts, hearts that could be tempted?
 
This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
Xaquin44 said:
you keep talking about the sinner and I keep talking about the victim. The sinner will get his one way or another (maybe), but no one is watching out for the victim. In some backwater country a woman is raped .... she hasn't ever heard of jesus or the bible, so she doesn't have heaven to look forward to.
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That's a huge presumption on your part. Why do you believe that she won't go to heaven just because she hadn't been exposed to Jesus?
Why doesn't god watch out for her?
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You're asking why she had to suffer? Because, just saying she suffered isn't saying God hasn't watched out for her. You do need to realize that.

I feel for her suffering. I personally find it horrible that anyone has to suffer in any way. Perhaps that's why I have to resort to believing it happens for reasons I don't understand - because I don't understand the reasons nor even pretend to. And, I believe God does things for His reasons. I merely accept that He hasn't yet felt the need to explain Himself to me on every action.
My whole arguement can easily be boiled down to 'why doesn't the god who handcrafted each atom in the earth (I like my handcrafted atom saying) It's a good saying :cheers:, stop bad things from happening?'

yes yes I know about all the fruit eating and garden leaving and all, but I didn't do any of that, and neither did you or anyone else alive today.
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I can give you the "you can't know good unless you know bad" speech, or "mysterious ways" speech, or the one above (my personal understanding). You've already rejected them all. Something has hardened your heart - some personal or loved one experience you can't reconcile. I'm sorry for that pain. I hope you work through it.
 
Xaquin44

Xaquin44

New Member
This_person said:
That's a huge presumption on your part. Why do you believe that she won't go to heaven just because she hadn't been exposed to Jesus?
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well, because it says it in the bible.

This_person said:
You're asking why she had to suffer? Because, just saying she suffered isn't saying God hasn't watched out for her. You do need to realize that.
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If god was really watching out for her then she wouldn't have suffered. You try to protect your kids from harm right? What if you had the power to do that infinatly? I'd do it.
 
This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
Xaquin44 said:
well, because it says it in the bible.
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No, not true. Jesus said that someone can only get to God through Him (Jesus). That does NOT say that there is not a method of knowing and accepting Jesus without knowledge of Jesus on earth. This is but one, small part of our existance (in my opinion).
If god was really watching out for her then she wouldn't have suffered. You try to protect your kids from harm right? What if you had the power to do that infinatly? I'd do it.
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I probably would, too. But, imagine how boring a life that would be for a human - no struggle, no strife, no setbacks to overcome......

Now, pain like THAT, I would always stop. All suffering, probably not. But, I'm not omniscient, either.
 
Xaquin44

Xaquin44

New Member
This_person said:
No, not true. Jesus said that someone can only get to God through Him (Jesus). That does NOT say that there is not a method of knowing and accepting Jesus without knowledge of Jesus on earth. This is but one, small part of our existance (in my opinion).
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how can you accept jesus when you've never even heard the name?

This_person said:
I probably would, too. But, imagine how boring a life that would be for a human - no struggle, no strife, no setbacks to overcome......
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eh, I wouldn't find peace boring. There are a million and one things to do on this planet that needn't be boring just because you haven't suffered before.
 
This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
Xaquin44 said:
how can you accept jesus when you've never even heard the name?
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I thought we'd had this discussion before?

What if there's a point after death for knowledge? Or, what if that's a life that is the punishment for sins or lack of belief in a previous life? Etc., etc.
eh, I wouldn't find peace boring. There are a million and one things to do on this planet that needn't be boring just because you haven't suffered before.
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Maybe.....
 
wxtornado

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
This_person said:
I thought we'd had this discussion before?

What if there's a point after death for knowledge? Or, what if that's a life that is the punishment for sins or lack of belief in a previous life? Etc., etc.Maybe.....
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What if, what if. What if there ISN'T a point after death for knowledge? Will the person get to heaven?
 
This_person

This_person

Well-Known Member
wxtornado said:
Why is it so hard to answer a

very
simple
question?

I know why, but can YOU tell me why?
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I thought I answered it. I can't make that decision, but I believe they are given the tools to make the decision on their own.

Or, am I missing another question from earlier?
 
T

Tootaloo

New Member
wxtornado said:
How in the world are you supposed to "accept" someone you've never heard of??
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That question used to make me crazy. John 14:6 says that you can only go to heaven though the son (Jesus) and yet the first part of Romans says that you can know God through his creation...that the very rocks cry out who He is. It seemed like a contradiction. And I would wonder...how that fulfilled John 14:6 because everyone knows God created the heavens and the earth....if you find God through creation does it fulfill knowing Jesus?

But one day I was focusing on the first chapter of John...In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God...and all things that were created were created by Him...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among them. Then I understood. Jesus was the creator...so of course He can be found in His creation. Regardless of having heard the name of Jesus, anyone who has focused on creation and wondered about the creator...who has decided to seek Him...has found the savior spoken about in the gospels.

That is one way someone can find Jesus without even knowing who he is...
 
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