Where did Evil come from?
- Thread starter Penn
- Start date
Don't worry, Bluto - I've already called the FBI.
ConcrndCitizen2
New Member
Isaiah 45 : 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why does God allow bad things to happen to people? First off God created imperfect creations. They are not God, whether we're speaking of the universe, angels, or mankind. All, therefore, HAD to fall. This means no one and no thing is innocent.
Romans 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God knew all of this would happen and made us anyway. I suppose He is just big enough to own up to it all back there in Isaiah 45 : 7. But He also made a way out of the mess and told mankind that if we'd only ask for HIM to do IN us what we obviously failed to do and couldn't do, ( promising ad nauseum in the Old Covenant days to "obey Him" in man's own power and by his own self-works !), then He'd do it ALL in us, through us, and for us with HIS OMNIPOTENCE, as the New Covenant here prophesied:
Ezekiel 36 : 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Simple. When we ask God, HIS life comes to live on the inside and the outside of the indwellee. This is called "Partaking of/Participating with The Divine Nature".( 2 Peter 1: 3-4 ) When we don't ask, He doesn't , and we stay stuck in our own natural, fallen existance. ( These two lives are described in Deuteronomy 28 : 14 - 68 ) "The Former", ( pun ), is called "Present Salvation" and it's continuance on into an Eternal Life, ( which is only the same life of God continuing within forever ), is the bonus of that, of the one united with Christ, lived in Heaven. The latter only gets the resulting death it chose for itself.
How does this translate to reality when the christian gets shot on the street just like the non-christian? Look at it this way : if bad things didn't happen to christians then 1 ) christians would never be able to show the miraculous love of God to the sinner and demonstrate that Christ , Himself, is still alive and well , and living within them, therefore, HIS forgiveness, grace, mercy, and love are all available to the gunman also, and 2 ) if the gunman rejects the new Life God is offering, then God has just made the christian part of His "Divine Sting Operation", because if that sin was never commited by the gunman upon him, then God would not be able to punish the gunman.
Some people really are doomed.
Jude: 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Christian, suffering at the hand of the "evil-doer", is only the means to their inevitable end. However, the christian gets the bonus of being filled with Divine Long-suffering, etc., : The Fruits of The Holy Spirit. We live in a win-win situation no matter what is going on around us.
God uses His vessels for His purposes. That's why He is Sovereign and true christians call Him the LORD over their lives and give their whole selves to Him trusting His wisdom in whatever needs to be done to accomplish HIS Divine Plan. Even if it means getting shot "in the line of duty"..... so that someone truely evil could get what they deserve...
Hebrews 10 : 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
That is the origin of evil and why bad things happen to everyone. Those who have Christ, have nothing to fear from either... God's got it all "covered"... He knows what He's doin'...
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why does God allow bad things to happen to people? First off God created imperfect creations. They are not God, whether we're speaking of the universe, angels, or mankind. All, therefore, HAD to fall. This means no one and no thing is innocent.
Romans 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God knew all of this would happen and made us anyway. I suppose He is just big enough to own up to it all back there in Isaiah 45 : 7. But He also made a way out of the mess and told mankind that if we'd only ask for HIM to do IN us what we obviously failed to do and couldn't do, ( promising ad nauseum in the Old Covenant days to "obey Him" in man's own power and by his own self-works !), then He'd do it ALL in us, through us, and for us with HIS OMNIPOTENCE, as the New Covenant here prophesied:
Ezekiel 36 : 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Simple. When we ask God, HIS life comes to live on the inside and the outside of the indwellee. This is called "Partaking of/Participating with The Divine Nature".( 2 Peter 1: 3-4 ) When we don't ask, He doesn't , and we stay stuck in our own natural, fallen existance. ( These two lives are described in Deuteronomy 28 : 14 - 68 ) "The Former", ( pun ), is called "Present Salvation" and it's continuance on into an Eternal Life, ( which is only the same life of God continuing within forever ), is the bonus of that, of the one united with Christ, lived in Heaven. The latter only gets the resulting death it chose for itself.
How does this translate to reality when the christian gets shot on the street just like the non-christian? Look at it this way : if bad things didn't happen to christians then 1 ) christians would never be able to show the miraculous love of God to the sinner and demonstrate that Christ , Himself, is still alive and well , and living within them, therefore, HIS forgiveness, grace, mercy, and love are all available to the gunman also, and 2 ) if the gunman rejects the new Life God is offering, then God has just made the christian part of His "Divine Sting Operation", because if that sin was never commited by the gunman upon him, then God would not be able to punish the gunman.
Some people really are doomed.
Jude: 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Christian, suffering at the hand of the "evil-doer", is only the means to their inevitable end. However, the christian gets the bonus of being filled with Divine Long-suffering, etc., : The Fruits of The Holy Spirit. We live in a win-win situation no matter what is going on around us.
God uses His vessels for His purposes. That's why He is Sovereign and true christians call Him the LORD over their lives and give their whole selves to Him trusting His wisdom in whatever needs to be done to accomplish HIS Divine Plan. Even if it means getting shot "in the line of duty"..... so that someone truely evil could get what they deserve...
Hebrews 10 : 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
That is the origin of evil and why bad things happen to everyone. Those who have Christ, have nothing to fear from either... God's got it all "covered"... He knows what He's doin'...
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Larry Gude
Strung Out
ST...
…in response to...
and
I say "nope" because Jesus Christ looked just as much like the cabbie or Apoo as Osama Bin Laden.
Tisk, tisk, how unlike you to play on peoples prejudices!
…in response to...
and
I say "nope" because Jesus Christ looked just as much like the cabbie or Apoo as Osama Bin Laden.
Tisk, tisk, how unlike you to play on peoples prejudices!
K
Kain99
Guest
I've seen this before. Am I mis-understanding the true meaning behind the statement? It just seems a little out there.
How is suffering a bonus?
No Beatitudes for you, Kain? I thought you were a Christian?
That doesn't sound particularly fair to me. However, the NT does teach that the worse off you have it on Earth, the better you'll have it when you die - and that doesn't seem fair to me, either.
So brighten up, Kain! When you've got troubles and feel like the world is against you, think about how great everything's gonna be when you're dead!
ConcrndCitizen2
New Member
It's not. The result is. Just like the person who exercizes his body pushing against resistance is made stronger, so too is the christian made more Christ-like, ( patient, etc. ) during persecution of any kind. ( No this isn't a regurgitation of Nietzsche's "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger".. He was still vernerating natural self-works. )
If the christian sufferer isn't exhibiting The Divine Fruits of The Holy Spirit during this "exercize against resistance", then one can begin to question whether or not it is really The Holy Spirit of God living and acting from within him/her, or just their own natural spirit attempting to do the humanly impossible, they are still under the law, and have a false christ instead. There should be true maturity displayed of the Divine Kind. ( This is merely God shining through the transparent life of the believer; not this human being becoming God. )
Therefore, these little "christian exercizes", of God vs. Evil, ( whether that evil is on the inside or the outside of us and our lives ), have all sorts of applicable "reasons"; not "just cuz" God is running His own "Divine Sting" against criminals who live in rebellion against Him. It also displays God, Himself, fighting against the resisting Evil, on behalf of His children, IN and through these children, just like He promised to do in The New Covenant. "When we are weak, God is strong".
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ConcrndCitizen2
New Member
So being indwelt, controlled by, and exhibiting the Perfect Attributes of God and HIS MATURITY while still alive, in the flesh, in this life is "unfair" and results in being "worse off" than the person who is, like a baby, selfishly causing the suffering of the christian?
Remind me to not ask you to figure up my taxes either.
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K
Kain99
Guest
Oh... Is that what Christians do? I guess I'm a little slow.
That makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain.
Cari, If you repeat this again I will understand that you expect to be treated with the same disrespect!
In a matter of speaking, yes. They're supposed to focus not on their trials and tribulations here on Earth, but the reward of Heaven if they turn the other cheek, forget about money and possessions, love their enemies, etc, etc. I mean, most Christians don't, but they're supposed to.
K
Kain99
Guest
When I was little I used to think..... Gee... God must have something really special planned for me. Maybe I'll grow up and save the world or something.
Now, I realize that life sucks for everybody. I think this was one of the most important lessons I've ever had in life.
Nobody is immune, nobody is more special. We are all just hanging on by the skin of our teeth.
Big lesson. Glad I've finally figured it out.
I am a Christian. I just don't buy every single thing they say.
My God is Down to Earth. "Life stinks, suck it up!"
Now, I realize that life sucks for everybody. I think this was one of the most important lessons I've ever had in life.
Nobody is immune, nobody is more special. We are all just hanging on by the skin of our teeth.
Big lesson. Glad I've finally figured it out.
I am a Christian. I just don't buy every single thing they say.
My God is Down to Earth. "Life stinks, suck it up!"
I think you're personalizing this too much, Kain. Maybe instead of YOU saving the world, your contribution will be to give birth so that one of your kids or grandkids saves the world. Maybe you've already saved the world and didn't realize it - maybe you chatted with a stranger, who was on his way to set off a nuclear bomb, then didn't get there in time because your chatting delayed him.
Could be anything.
Could be anything.
Penn
Dancing Up A Storm
An interesting slant on this theme is the tenet that God will not place any burden on you that you cannot handle.He knows how much you can take, and won't push you beyond that limit.
I was talking with my sister last night, who had to leap out of a second-story window to escape a fire in her home in Atlanta, Ga., the night before Thanksgiving. She admitted to me there was a small part of her faith that questioned how/why God could let that event happen to her.
I told her that what I've read in the Bible, and had discussions with my Pastors, etc., that it's all part of His plan; that we don't know of it, but the important thing to remember is that HE DOES.
The idea that my sister Carole will be rewarded in Heaven for the trials she had to endure while she lived on this earth make sense.
None of us going to know our reward until we get there.
It's like vrai says, maybe you've already contributed to saving the world, and don't even know what you've accomplished.
However, HE KNOWS, and He placed you in a position to make a difference in somebody's life, without your knowledge.
That's not true - people commit suicide all the time because they can't handle the burdens placed on them. BUT...what if that person's suicide is God's plan, too? What if by them committing suicide, maybe it will motiviate a loved one to start working with depressed teens, thereby saving a few lives? You have to look at the potential greater good.
"You are not the potter, only the potter's clay." That's a leftover philosophy from my religious days.
It's like this war with Iraq - people died, some Iraqis and some American and British soldiers. However, the greater good is that the Iraqi people are no longer under the rule of a ruthless tyrant. Those handful of lives weren't wasted because their deaths brought something positive to significantly more people.
You can take any terrible tragedy and see the greater good in it. If you look in the Bible, God was never skittish about sacrificing a few lives for a larger purpose. Plus that, if you truly believe, you wouldn't fear death anyway because of the reward of Heaven.
I like philosophical discussions like this.
Penn
Dancing Up A Storm
Good point....
I wish I knew some positive way to answer the idea of someone taking their own life; is it God's doing, did He give them more than they THOUGHT they could handle, or was it a weakness on their own behalf? Did they percieve burdens, real or unreal, of a personal nature?
Scripture does not address paranoia or schizophrenia, I don't believe.
What it does allude to is the belief, or Faith, that He will not deal you anymore than you can take. You have to believe in that, and that Faith will get you through the worst of times. The key word is, I think, Faith.
Your own question may go along was to answer it. Looking at "the bigger picture", as a whole - giving rise to a loved one to start working with others who have suicidal tendencies has merit.
But is the taking of one's own life part of God's plan? I don't know that.
The Gospel of Mark talks about Judas hanging himself in his grief over what he had caused to happen with Jesus Christ and the Pharasees, and then Pontius Pilate.
Again, did realize what he had done, and took it upon himself to take his own life, or was it part of God's plan? I don't know.
It would seem to come down to a question of choices again; you follow Gods' path, or you follow your own. I think it was a choice Judas thought he had to make; he thought Christ was going to proclaim Himself King, and rid Israel and Judah of the Romans.
When he discovered Christ meant to work from within mens hearts and minds, he decided to "force the issue". I think it is pretty clear that none of them knew God's plan.
If you don't have faith in God, maybe you(figuratively speaking) don't see any alternative than suicide.
Originally posted by vraiblonde
That's not true - people commit suicide all the time because they can't handle the burdens placed on them. BUT...what if that person's suicide is God's plan, too? What if by them committing suicide, maybe it will motiviate a loved one to start working with depressed teens, thereby saving a few lives? You have to look at the potential greater good.
I like philosophical discussions like this.
I wish I knew some positive way to answer the idea of someone taking their own life; is it God's doing, did He give them more than they THOUGHT they could handle, or was it a weakness on their own behalf? Did they percieve burdens, real or unreal, of a personal nature?
Scripture does not address paranoia or schizophrenia, I don't believe.
What it does allude to is the belief, or Faith, that He will not deal you anymore than you can take. You have to believe in that, and that Faith will get you through the worst of times. The key word is, I think, Faith.
Your own question may go along was to answer it. Looking at "the bigger picture", as a whole - giving rise to a loved one to start working with others who have suicidal tendencies has merit.
But is the taking of one's own life part of God's plan? I don't know that.
The Gospel of Mark talks about Judas hanging himself in his grief over what he had caused to happen with Jesus Christ and the Pharasees, and then Pontius Pilate.
Again, did realize what he had done, and took it upon himself to take his own life, or was it part of God's plan? I don't know.
It would seem to come down to a question of choices again; you follow Gods' path, or you follow your own. I think it was a choice Judas thought he had to make; he thought Christ was going to proclaim Himself King, and rid Israel and Judah of the Romans.
When he discovered Christ meant to work from within mens hearts and minds, he decided to "force the issue". I think it is pretty clear that none of them knew God's plan.
If you don't have faith in God, maybe you(figuratively speaking) don't see any alternative than suicide.
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ConcrndCitizen2
New Member
penn hit the nail on the head. This promise : " 1 Moreover, brethren : 13 : There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it. " ( 1 Corinthians 10: 1a & 13 )
is given to believers; not unbelievers, not all of mankind.
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:8
Therefore, it is the Faith of Christ; His own Divine Faith, ( just like His own Divine Love, Patience and Longsuffering indwelling and acting from within the believer ), that will bear up under the trials and tribulations of this world, no matter how strong they are, ( He overcame the cross and death, therefore He can overcome anything else from within our bodies ! ), and hold us up and carry us through the hard times! It is HIS Faith from within the believer that can withstand all the fiery darts of disbelief. HIS Faith will never fail us or not be able to bear up under ALL of the tribulation that humanity throws at us!
People who are not bearing up under the worst trails mankind can devise are depending on their own faith. This is not the miraculous Gift of Christ's Faith acting from within. His can never fail. That which comes only from mankind does fail all the time. It too = self-works...not grace.
By the way, vraiblonde, I think I would let you do my taxes now. I perceive you have a good heart. You want to save everyone...I only wish they'd co-operate with your views...
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