Which was it?

[wxtornado]

So, yes, while we believe He knew what choices were available to us, it would still be of our own choosing which one we would make as an individual.

Can
you
choose
something
different
than
what
your
god
already
saw
you
choose?

Try really hard just to answer this question.

 

[Toxick]

Can
you
choose
something
different
than
what
your
god
already
saw
you
choose?

Try really hard just to answer this question.

Fun time:

Respond to both:




Yes, you can.








No, you can't.








Have fun.

 

[wxtornado]

Fun time:

Respond to both:




Yes, you can.








No, you can't.








Have fun.

S'what I thought. I'll let the other theists have a crack at it. One answered honestly already.

 

[Toxick]

S'what I thought. I'll let the other theists have a crack at it. One answered honestly already.

I did answer honestly. Long ago. You simply refuse to acknowledge my answer. I said that I don't accept the premise of your question.

You are begging the question, and you're forcing the law of the excluded middle where it doesn't necessarily apply.


You assert that foresight is indicitive of a lack of free will. (I presume that you would also assert the converse is also true: that existence of free will discounts the very possibility of omniscience, as omniscience implies foresight)

I say that's a steaming pile of horse-feces.




Answer me this: How big was the cows ass where you came from?

You must answer within the scope of my question, and I will accept nothing less.

 

[Toxick]

But was Douglas Quaid dreaming the whole thing in Total Recall, or did it actually happen?

Actually happened.


There were several scenes where Quaid/Hauser does not appear. If he's not there, he wouldn't have dreamed it. QED.


Cohagen: Think you can play along?
Richter: Yes, sir.
Cohagen: Good. 'Cause otherwise, I'll erase your ass.

 

[Toxick]

Unless... Queid/Hauser included those conversations, as filler for his dream

Well then... you can be the one to rock me to sleep tonight.






I'm in my happy place...

 

[This_person]

Can
you
choose
something
different
than
what
your
god
already
saw
you
choose?

Try really hard just to answer this question.

Why do you insist on just differing the versions of the George Carlin question? This is seriously being asked, not a slam, not sarcasm. Is it that you really can't see what you're asking, or do you think you're just that much smarter that you can figure out different ways to re-word the paradoxical question? No matter how this is answered, within the confines of the question, you can't be satisfied with the answer, because it's a (not so hidden) trick question. Please, if you're interested in thinking outside of the box, try and phrase the question in a non-paradox manner.

Thanks

 

[This_person]

But he's the church leader, he talks to God, or do you not believe that? If he comes to you and said "GOd has instructed us to..." you would ignore it?

This question was asked of us in church, if our church leader, the prophet came and told us to do so, if we were true believers, and took our pledge and baptism serious, then we would all UNQUESTIONINGLY do as instructed. I replied "You've lost your minds if you think that." People looked at me like I had just killed all of their children.. yep, as you put it, Lemmings.

This has already happened to several churches, and their followers did as instructed (not all but the majority). This no better then someone coming forward and saying "God has talked to me, and told me if I don't raise 10M dollars, by this date, I will be called home!!" And the lemmings pick up the phone and empty their savings accounts to save this religious man..

This gives me some good insight as to why you're so cynical of religion. No realistic, Bible based church would consider their pastor/preacher a prophet just because he's the head of the church. The Pope isn't a prophet. While I think there are stupid people out there, and you're right it's probably greater than .01%, that will fall for the "give me money or else" type preachers, I think they are by far the exception and not the rule. Try a more established church.

 

[itsbob]

This gives me some good insight as to why you're so cynical of religion. No realistic, Bible based church would consider their pastor/preacher a prophet just because he's the head of the church. The Pope isn't a prophet. While I think there are stupid people out there, and you're right it's probably greater than .01%, that will fall for the "give me money or else" type preachers, I think they are by far the exception and not the rule. Try a more established church.

Do you believe the Pope talks with God?

 

[brendar buhl]

Do you believe the Pope talks with God?

I believe that we all talk with God. The Pope does so no more than you or I. I believe that our lives are nothing but an ongoing and eternal conversation with God. Everything that we say and do, the very essence of our existance is a conversation with God in which we are discussing who we are and who He is. Just a thought.

Can
you
choose
something
different
than
what
your
god
already
saw
you
choose?

Try really hard just to answer this question.

Why are so many people afraid of saying those three words, "I don't know"?

 

[This_person]

And what do you feel the role of the Pope is? According to the Catholic church he is the successor of St. Peter and the Vicar (subsitute) of Christ

I would think the Catholic Church is pretty established.

I think he's not a prophet. I agree, it's an established church, that doesn't do any of the things Bob was talking about. No blind following without thought, no KoolAid drinking in South America, no alien/star trips abroad, no "pay me now or God'll send me to Hell" kind of talk. Yep, they ask for tithing, just like the bible suggests, as a way of maintaining the administrative side of things, not a way of buying into or out of heaven. And, they both tolerate and accept that others believe different things. I'm not Catholic, but I don't see any good slams in this context. What were you going for?

 

[This_person]

I believe that we all talk with God. The Pope does so no more than you or I. I believe that our lives are nothing but an ongoing and eternal conversation with God. Everything that we say and do, the very essence of our existance is a conversation with God in which we are discussing who we are and who He is. Just a thought.

Pretty much sums it up for me, too.

 

[Penn]

I believe that we all talk with God. The Pope does so no more than you or I. I believe that our lives are nothing but an ongoing and eternal conversation with God. Everything that we say and do, the very essence of our existance is a conversation with God in which we are discussing who we are and who He is. Just a thought.

I think you're right with these thoughts. I believe that millions of people do talk with God everyday. However, that is a result of their asking God to come into their lives, into their hearts and souls. We think of Him as our Savior who died on the cross for all of us. There is still a minority among us who refuse to acknowledge Him as such, and therefore never get any further type of understanding, other than what their own human minds tell them. As long as they reject Jesus Christ as nothing more than a mortal man, they will never find that "spiritual faith"; they cannot bridge the gap between that spirituality and what it is they perceive in their own minds. JMHO

 

[itsbob]

I think you're right with these thoughts. I believe that millions of people do talk with God everyday. However, that is a result of their asking God to come into their lives, into their hearts and souls. We think of Him as our Savior who died on the cross for all of us. There is still a minority among us who refuse to acknowledge Him as such, and therefore never get any further type of understanding, other than what their own human minds tell them. As long as they reject Jesus Christ as nothing more than a mortal man, they will never find that "spiritual faith"; they cannot bridge the gap between that spirituality and what it is they perceive in their own minds. JMHO

WHo died on the cross, God or Jesus? God or his son?

Ok, everyone talks with God, how many communicate with him? How many hear his voice and get replies?

How can you say I reject Jesus if I say he was a normal human being? That's not rejecting him, rejecting him would be me saying he was never on the face of this planet, he was not a good person, he never existed. He was here, he walked the earth, he had a family, and passed on in old age. He was a good person, he had compassion for his fellow man, he was humane.. all good qualities, and as I said before WWJD would be a good question to ask.. If I was a good a man as Jesus was, what should I do, what would he do? But you can also say, WWDLD? What Would the Dali Lama DO? Or thousands of other righteous men AND women that have walked the Earth over the time of man...

I reject the fictional writings of his life. I can understand people that weren't as educated or as smart as we are that inhabited this Earth 1800 years ago believing it, but now? Talking bushes? People living until they were 400 500 or even 600 years old?? If someone walked into your place of work, and said.. "MAN, I just went out for a smoke break and had this kick azz conversation with this bush over the meaning of life." What would you think, what would you do? Would you ask him to introduce you to this bush so you can talk to it too? Would you call social services? If it's silly and unbelievable today, it hasn't changed, it was silly and unbelievable back 3000 years ago too.

And I aslo abhore the thought of how many MILLIONS of people have died, been murdered, or have willingfully given their lives over this book of fiction, and in the name of God. And many times over silliness like "Our God is better than your God".

 

[This_person]

WHo died on the cross, God or Jesus? God or his son?
God's son, Jesus, who (upon his resurrection) became one with the Father, seated at his right hand
Ok, everyone talks with God, how many communicate with him? How many hear his voice and get replies?
For the vast majority, communication with God is not through a version of AT&T. You don't necessarily hear a "voice" and get verbal "replies". Remember, I'm not answering (any of) this based upon anyone else's view of God, just mine. I believe that God answers me via a feeling, knowledge, signs like opportunities making themselves available, angels talking to me as if they were normal people helping guide my thoughts, etc. Whenever I pray to God, I get an answer - every single time. But, not a talking bush nor any other Speilberg kind of way. My answers come in the form of realizations (revelations?) that I didn't have before I prayed.

How can you say I reject Jesus if I say he was a normal human being? That's not rejecting him, rejecting him would be me saying he was never on the face of this planet, he was not a good person, he never existed. He was here, he walked the earth, he had a family, and passed on in old age. He was a good person, he had compassion for his fellow man, he was humane.. all good qualities, and as I said before WWJD would be a good question to ask.. If I was a good a man as Jesus was, what should I do, what would he do? But you can also say, WWDLD? What Would the Dali Lama DO? Or thousands of other righteous men AND women that have walked the Earth over the time of man...
Perhaps you don't reject Jesus, you reject the Christ. The man was good (and then some), but the Christ was, well, a lot more.
I reject the fictional writings of his life. I can understand people that weren't as educated or as smart as we are that inhabited this Earth 1800 years ago believing it, but now? Talking bushes? People living until they were 400 500 or even 600 years old?? If someone walked into your place of work, and said.. "MAN, I just went out for a smoke break and had this kick azz conversation with this bush over the meaning of life." What would you think, what would you do? Would you ask him to introduce you to this bush so you can talk to it too? Would you call social services? If it's silly and unbelievable today, it hasn't changed, it was silly and unbelievable back 3000 years ago too.
This, of course, is where faith comes in. I, personally, believe it happened as written. Now, are there more details that may make it more palatable to our "modern" understanding? Probably. But, as I've said before, I don't think the Bible tells us the whole story, just what we NEED to know. If your spouse, whom you trust explicitly, told you a story you had a hard time believing, would you choose to believe regardless of picking apart the details, or would you believe because you trusted and had faith in her? I'd believe my wife, I believe my God. I hold churches in a much lower regard than I do in my faith (in part because I know people with similar, though not as dramatic, stories as yours), but I personally believe the stories.
And I aslo abhore the thought of how many MILLIONS of people have died, been murdered, or have willingfully given their lives over this book of fiction, and in the name of God. And many times over silliness like "Our God is better than your God".

I agree that killing in the name of religion is pretty damned stupid. Whether it was the Inquisition, al Quada, Nazis, or any other group doing it, it is really stupid. It proves that the people doing it don't know their religion very well.

 

[wxtornado]

Why are so many people afraid of saying those three words, "I don't know"?

Sheesh, that was going to be my next question! Thank you, brendar - it really is refreshing to have folks like you in these conversations.

 

[wxtornado]

You assert that foresight is indicitive of a lack of free will. (I presume that you would also assert the converse is also true: that existence of free will discounts the very possibility of omniscience, as omniscience implies foresight)

I say that's a steaming pile of horse-feces.

Then demonstrate the contrary. Easy, right? That's all I've been asking all along: how do you reconcile free will and omniscience? And you *still* haven't answered the easy yes or no question. No surprise there

 

[Toxick]

Sheesh, that was going to be my next question! Thank you, brendar - it really is refreshing to have folks like you in these conversations.

So when I said this:
http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=1978949&postcount=123
It wasn't refreshing.


And when I said THIS:
http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=2036075&postcount=53
It also wasn't refreshing.


However, after I actually ponder your question, give it some real thought and actually try to respond to you intelligently, I guess I'm just a tedious close-minded typical christian with my blind-faith ignorance.


Nice.

It's good to see that you really are only interested in a healthy exchange of ideas.

 

[Toxick]

Then demonstrate the contrary. Easy, right?

Sure ... I'll just use my OWN omniscience as a demonstration.

That's all I've been asking all along: how do you reconcile free will and omniscience?

And I've ANSWERED YOU. The fact that you dont' like my answer and refuse to even acknowledge that I've answered you does not negate that I HAVE ANSWERED YOU.

And you *still* haven't answered the easy yes or no question.

That's because it's a bull#### question.


You haven't answered MY question.

How big was that cows ass?

If you can't answer that question to my satisfaction, there's really no point in continuing, is there?

 

[Toxick]

dont break your arm patting yourself on the back

Dear Gutless Turd,

Please point out where I was patting myself on the back. I'm merely having a conversation.



And at least I don't give out red and take pot-shots just because someone disagrees with me.