Zell Miller

[Ken King]

I didn't mean to sound sarcastic about the "deuce", but let me tell you a story:
I was an Air Force Intercept Technician( assisted an Intercept Controller, playing live "war games" w/fighters) at the time in, oh, say 1970 at Hancock Field AFB, Syracuse NY. One of our fighter squadrons had F-102s as their Air Defense assets, came out of Boston, if I recall correctly..

It was a very serious situation, where a trainer airplane, usually a T-33 Lockheed Racer, or a B-57 Canberra, would tow this huge canvas "sock" (TARGET) behind it on supposedly a mile-long or so cable, and the F-102 pilots would line up in a row, 2 or 3 fighters, and try to shoot holes in the canvas target with their FFAR weapons.

As I said, a very serious mission here; you had to get permission to fire these 2.75 FFAR rockets at the target from two levels of command, run through a detailed checklist prior to that, and make darn sure the pilots had their best course "lined up" on the target.

Well, I know it's a long story, but we'd accomplish this mission, and then sit in with our controller, and monitor the Post Mission briefing, where we'd talk about what went right or what didn't go so well, and where we could do better, etc.

To hear the target pilot describing the results, well it normally scared the bejesus out of him, watching behind his airplane where the rockets were going, as it was quite a show. Most of the time they went straight; other times they did not.

Now, the fighter pilots told much the same story of the results of the mission, but I do recall now and then, that at least one pilot said the rockets leaving his F-102 "looked like a bunch of pizzed off bees jetting out of a beehive, and not neccesarily in a straight line!"

That's pretty telling, coming from a fighter pilot, if you know what I mean.

Yeah the FFAR wasn't anything great, wasn't it dubbed the Mighty Mouse because it scurried away like a mouse, fast and in no known direction?

 

[ylexot]

After graduating, Kerry petitioned his draft board for a student deferment so he could study in -- where else? -- Paris. His deferment denied, Kerry then calculated that he could avoid Vietnam by joining the Naval Reserves rather than getting drafted into the Army or Marines, where he would, likely, see combat.

I've heard this several times, but haven't been able to find it coming from a reliable source. Does anybody have a link to information about Kerry's deferment?

 

[Penn]

Yeah the FFAR wasn't anything great, wasn't it dubbed the Mighty Mouse because it scurried away like a mouse, fast and in no known direction?

As a matter of fact Ken, I think you're right. I never controlled a "live fire mission" with the F-102, myself;

I started controlling F-106s and F-4s early on, in about 1974-75, and they didn't carry the FFAR weapons, at least not here in the states, that I was aware of.

Later, I got involved controlling F-15s, F-16s, then F-14s and F-18s in "dogfighting" scenarios while I was in Arizona, Korea and then Florida.

I did control a number of "live fire" missions when I was in Arizona and in Florida, but they involved mainly F-4s, F-15s, and the F-106s, before it was phased out of the Air Defense inventory.

 

[Ken King]

I've heard this several times, but haven't been able to find it coming from a reliable source. Does anybody have a link to information about Kerry's deferment?

What's a reliable source? It stems from an article from The Harvard Crimson, titled "John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress" and you can find reference to it here (though I don't know if that is considered credible) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html

 

[Penn]

I bet this guy could shed some more information on it, ylexot. He's the first author/journalist that I had seen broach the subject of Kerry's not-so-pristine record in college at Yale, and his attempts to get further deferments to go to a university outside the United States, like in France. He either has information on this, or knows where to go to find it. You might be able to e-mail him with a request.

 

[ylexot]

What's a reliable source? It stems from an article from The Harvard Crimson, titled "John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress" and you can find reference to it here (though I don't know if that is considered credible) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html

That article definitely adds to the credibility. Did the military keep records of deferment requests? I'm guessing not unless it is accepted.

 

[Ken King]

Found this. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185

 

[Ken King]

That article definitely adds to the credibility. Did the military keep records of deferment requests? I'm guessing not unless it is accepted.

Weren't these handled by local boards? I am unsure if there are any records out there or not.

 

[ylexot]

Now here's an interesting quote from that article:

Kerry said that the United Nations should have control over most of our foreign military operations. "I'm an internationalist. I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations."

 

[ylexot]

I think even though that article didn't point to documentation, it is pretty good evidence. The information from the article about the draft deferment request most likely came directly from Kerry. There would be no reason to make it up or research it.

Thanks Ken.

 

[vraiblonde]

Kerry said that the United Nations should have control over most of our foreign military operations. "I'm an internationalist. I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations."

And that's the #1 reason why I'm not voting for Kerry. We have already seen what the UN considers "control". Anyone who isn't completely astounded and frightened by Kerry's idea of foreign policy shouldn't be allowed to vote in a US election.

And on the homefront, my Yellow Dog grandparents have just chimed in:

Me: Please tell me you're not voting for John Kerry.
Grandpa: Can't tell you that, Sam.
Me: As a Vietnam vet, I'd think his comments after the war and his disrespect of his medals would have made him a no-go for you.
Grandpa: He never did that.
Me: Yes, he did. There's pictures, video, audio..
Grandpa: That stuff's just made up by the Republicans to try and make Kerry look bad.

 

[ylexot]

And that's the #1 reason why I'm not voting for Kerry. We have already seen what the UN considers "control". Anyone who isn't completely astounded and frightened by Kerry's idea of foreign policy shouldn't be allowed to vote in a US election.

And on the homefront, my Yellow Dog grandparents have just chimed in:

Me: Please tell me you're not voting for John Kerry.
Grandpa: Can't tell you that, Sam.
Me: As a Vietnam vet, I'd think his comments after the war and his disrespect of his medals would have made him a no-go for you.
Grandpa: He never did that.
Me: Yes, he did. There's pictures, video, audio..
Grandpa: That stuff's just made up by the Republicans to try and make Kerry look bad.

I guess he wouldn't take congressional records then either. Who does he believe?

Oh, and for the record, that quote I posted was from 1970 so his position might have changed slightly. Although from what he says lately, it couldn't have changed much.

 

[Ken King]

And that's the #1 reason why I'm not voting for Kerry. We have already seen what the UN considers "control". Anyone who isn't completely astounded and frightened by Kerry's idea of foreign policy shouldn't be allowed to vote in a US election.

And on the homefront, my Yellow Dog grandparents have just chimed in:

Me: Please tell me you're not voting for John Kerry.
Grandpa: Can't tell you that, Sam.
Me: As a Vietnam vet, I'd think his comments after the war and his disrespect of his medals would have made him a no-go for you.
Grandpa: He never did that.
Me: Yes, he did. There's pictures, video, audio..
Grandpa: That stuff's just made up by the Republicans to try and make Kerry look bad.

Are you adopted or were you by chance switched at birth?

 

[Penn]

From The Crimson.com article:

"Because of Kerry's background, and his style which the ladies adored, he may have succeeded in charming them into driving out to Concord on Saturday. And four Kerry votes from Bolton would probably mean all of Bolton's electoral votes for Kerry."
_________________________________________________________________
Does this sound familiar, doesn't it remind anyone of you of another "gentleman", only this one came out of Arkansas?

I can't sit here and attest to the absolute credibility of either of these articles, but it's crystal clear to me that John Kerry did have an aversion to the VietNam conflict, he did speak out against it as early as 1960, he did try to attain a deferment overseas for one year, fervently hoping the conflict would run it's course, and he did enlist in the US Navy Reserves, hoping to get out of being sent overseas.

When there was no avenue left to him to turn to, he did, in fact enlist, but in the Reserves - no slap on them - but, if he was an all-fired-up patriot, why didn't he just enlist in the regular Navy? Hmmmm?

Now, we know the rest of the story, from VietNam to the present; and it just makes it "come together' for me - this no-good, rotten, POS tried to do what a lot of teenaged "doves" did back in the 60's. But he had "pull", just like GW did, and tried to exploit it.

The one thing he could not do, was run to Canada, like many of his comrades did, because that would have ended any political future for him.

So, in essence, this scumbag, even then, most likely after Yale or Harvard had political ambitions - I can't see any doubt to that - and he figured if he couldn't evade/avoid VietNam, he was darn sure going to make the most out of his experience there, use it in future asperations to Congress, and yes, even the Presidency!

What a guy!!

 

[vraiblonde]

Are you adopted or were you by chance switched at birth?

Recessive gene.

 

[Ken King]

The one thing he could not do, was run to Canada, like many of his comrades did, because that would have ended any political future for him.

Sure he could have and it would have shown a truer conviction in his beliefs (not that I in any way endorse this type behavior). WJC did it (though he went to Europe) and after getting the pardon from Carter everything was once again possible.

 

[Penn]

Sure he could have and it would have shown a truer conviction in his beliefs (not that I in any way endorse this type behavior). WJC did it (though he went to Europe) and after getting the pardon from Carter everything was once again possible.

You're going to laugh when I say this, but yes , I'm a conservative and I form opinions about my party, not saying I'm totally happy with everything it stands for, but I am proud of it overall, and it's people who comprise it.

But I see a pattern of slimy sleaze coming out of the Democratic Party, the kind that they accuse of the Republican party and then deny, obfuscate, spin, yell louder than their opponents, and generally lie their way out of these issues; then they have the cojones to say they are the party for the people.

I call it as it is if Middle America cannot recognise this, we are in serious trouble.

 

[Ken King]

You're going to laugh when I say this, but yes , I'm a conservative and I form opinions about my party, not saying I'm totally happy with everything it stands for, but I am proud of it overall, and it's people who comprise it.

But I see a pattern of slimy sleaze coming out of the Democratic Party, the kind that they accuse of the Republican party and then deny, obfuscate, spin, yell louder than their opponents, and generally lie their way out of these issues; then they have the cojones to say they are the party for the people.

I call it as it is if Middle America cannot recognise this, we are in serious trouble.

Yep, that is why Zell and I (and after seeing the recent polls it looks like many others) will be voting for Bush. The Democratic Party is in a quagmire.

 

[Penn]

What's even funnier than that POS Kerry, and his false patriotism schtick, is his running mate - John Edwards.

I saw a newsflash yesterday, that claimed he amassed a $39 million dollar fortune from prosecuting medical malpractice suits, early on in his career as a trial lawyer, before he became a Senator!

Ain't that just peachy!

He didn't have to marry into money like his slimy partner did, he just made gobs of money off of people who wanted to sue for their own personal greed.These are the kind of people he identifies with.

He's another champion of the people!

 

[Ken King]

What's even funnier than that POS Kerry, and his false patriotism schtick, is his running mate - John Edwards.

I saw a newsflash yesterday, that claimed he amassed a $39 million dollar fortune from prosecuting medical malpractice suits, early on in his career as a trial lawyer, before he became a Senator!

Ain't that just peachy!

He didn't have to marry into money like his slimy partner did, he just made gobs of money off of people who wanted to sue for their own personal greed.These are the kind of people he identifies with.

He's another champion of the people!

And what of his military service, or the lack of it? Where does a man old enough to have served in Vietnam get off calling anyone a liar (like he has with the Swiftboat Vets) when he chose not to serve at all, not even in the Guard?