Thank you, SamSpade! Although I am sure SM will be telling us how this does not apply and/or that it means anything anyone but a Catholic wants it to mean.
"Mary Worship?"
- Thread starter Starman3000m
- Start date
Thank you, SamSpade! Although I am sure SM will be telling us how this does not apply and/or that it means anything anyone but a Catholic wants it to mean.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
I am not trying to refute the original poster, nor do I have anything against Catholicism, having been raised one myself, served as an altar boy, gone to Catholic schools and personal close friends with priests including a best friend who became a priest.
Nor do I think challenging this person's credentials as a nun has any bearing on what it is they have to say, because anyone could say them and still be correct. It would be as though you were told a house was on fire by a man claiming to have been a former fireman, and people doubted the house was actually on fire because his tenure as a fireman was dubious.
My observations as a Catholic were that, if you observed objectively, veneration of Mary pretty much was the same as outright worship. When I talked with priests about it, their reaction was more or less "how much can it hurt?". Even as a believer it sometimes bothered me that we worship God in a human skin called Jesus, even more it bothered me that a person who isn't divine in any sense of the word would warrant such attention.
So as a young Catholic, I eschewed anything resembling worship of a person, whether it was the mother of Jesus or any "saint". I avoided rosaries, devotional scapulars or medallions. I wasn't going to let my Muslim or Sikh school mates ridicule my religion as polytheistic.
I would agree that it looks like worship to the outsider, and I believe that there may be some Catholics who do not know/understand the difference. Worship, by the Catholic definition, means sacrifice. We offer sacrifice to God alone, especially and most perfectly at the Mass. We must be willing to sacrifice our lives for God alone, and His Glory.
The Pharisees questioned how this man could claim to be God. I am fond of telling my children that a man cannot be God, but God can be a man. Same logic applies when I explain the Eucharist to them.
PsyOps
Pixelated
What is it with atheists and the never ending analogy of the flying spag monster?
It’s a tangible thing that can be worshipped because it’s so tasty. Atheists need tangibility. They need to see, smell, taste, and touch. That is, unless a scientist tells them something exists. Then all they have to do is believe.
The central belief is that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe
Starman3000m
New Member
Hi SamSpade, please re-read the complete context of the verse you quoted. I am definitely aware of that passage in scripture and I believe you misunderstand what the difference is between an "apparition" and a body being raised back to life. "Mary" did not come back bodily to intermingle among the living again.
1.) An Apparition is the "intangible appearing" of a deceased person's spirit visibly appearing to those who claim an encounter with such experience. Such are the Marian apparitions, Virgin of Guadalupe, Fatima, etc.
Other such "Apparitions" have been claimed to have been seen by Joseph Smith (Mormonism) and Sun myung Moon.
2.) A body being "raised to life" is the actual body of a deceased person coming back out of the grave and resuming his/her bodily presence once again and going on to live with friends and family as before. The example of one such event is when Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead and also the account of Jesus raising a young girl from being dead after her family thought she was deceased. In these events, both resumed their human life among the living. They were "raised from the dead" - they were not "apparitions".
Conclusion: Apparitions spiritually appear and disappear in the encounter; a person "raised from the dead" has actually come back to life and continues among the living as before.
Apparitions have been used by demonic involvement to deceive others and guide them away from placing complete faith and trust in Jesus.
Those Biblical events of the people being raised from the dead are attributed to no one else but a miracle of God who is able to do so as Jesus proved before and after His death, prior to His Resurrection.
There Is Only One Truth
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PsyOps
Pixelated
You can keep
at those that believe there is a REAL creator with your juvenile analogy, it only marginalizes your position rather than mine (or ours). You're proving absolutely nothing.You can keep
its not my analogy, and you were the one talking about it.
All i did was to report what the FSG folks say about the FSG.
The text says, "appeared to them", it does not say they came back and lived again amongst everyone.
Once again you must hold the keys to all that the Bible says, because the HS has guided you and no one else.
If it even has a whiff of Catholic doctrine you refuse to see what is right before your eyes.
not to mention the wealth of "extra biblical" teachings that he is using to defend his position......
PsyOps
Pixelated
its not my analogy, and you were the one talking about it.
All i did was to report what the FSG folks say about the FSG.
Yeah, okay...
PsyOps
Pixelated
Nope... the text reads: "... The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
Their BODIES were raised to life. Their BODIES appears to many people. They were not ghosts, or imaged on toast, or on a garage, or inside a potato. They were actual people raised back to life.
Yeah, okay...
so you are saying you weren't talking about it? or are you saying I brought it up? Or are you saying thats not what they say about themselves?
what exactly is it that you are "yeah Ok" with?
PsyOps
Pixelated
No more or less than you. What does that have to do with using a lame analogy to try to show how stupid Christians are for believing in some inanimate being that no one can prove exists? I’ve read enough of your posts to know where you’re coming from.
what i posted has NOTHING to do with implying christians are stupid for their beleifs. I was reponding to your mischarecterization of the FSM, and what the alledged FSM beliefs are.
PsyOps
Pixelated
That's the part you seem to be missing... there is no belief in a Flying Spaghetti Monster that created the universe. It's a means to show how stupid to it is to believe in a higher being; a being no one can prove exists. This is not directed at you but, devoid of any real retort to a belief in God this is what atheists are left with; conjuring up some childish analogy that is intended to make believers look stupid.
Edit: And you missed the original intent what I posted to Foodcritic... Atheist demand God doesn't exist because God is this invisible, intangible being that can't be proved. Because it lacks these qualities it can't possibly exist. Therefore, they created a tangible thing as an analogy to show how ridiculous it is to believe something tangible can create the universe, let alone something intangilbe.
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baydoll
New Member
I guess you forgot to read this part from Starman's OP:
"LETTING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SPEAK FOR ITSELF
I believe in letting people speak for themselves. Therefore my primary sources about Catholic doctrines and history come from the Catholic Church. "
For instance, this little number:
... Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” [10] Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” [11]
So when did Jesus make His mommy into His Co-Redemptrix?
again, you would be wrong. the origial "creator" of the FSM did so in protest to a law that would allow teaching of intelligent design in schools. The FSM wasn't aimed at christians, but at the government that was planning on allowing these religious teachings in school.
as for beleivers "looking stupid" FSM or not, your beliefs are yours. If your beliefs seem silly when you look at them when juxtaposed with the FSM maybe you should reexamine what you believe. :justsaying:
Starman3000m
New Member
Exactly Right! Just like Lazarus (John 11:43-45; and the young girl (Mark 5:41-43) that Jesus brought back to life (bodily) to resume living there on earth as before.
This was one of the Biblical miracles that can only be attributed to the power of Jesus which proved to people then and there that Jesus was really whom He claimed to be. Thus, the final proof even upon His crucifixion, that Jesus not only had the power to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, make the dumb to speak, the deaf to hear, make the blind to see, make the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, but to raise the dead!
Which He did
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