$85 BILLION to Ukraine and Israel

[SamSpade]

What are they doing with that money?

Infantry arms and equipment
Air defense
10,000 Javelin anti-armor systems
1 Patriot air defense battery and munitions
90,000 other anti-armor systems and munitions
12 NASAM systems
2,000 Stinger anti-aircraft systems
Avenger air defense systems
8,000 TOW missiles
HAWK air defense systems and munitions
35,000 grenade launchers and small arms, with ammunition
Laser-guided rocket systems
AIM-7 missiles
100,000 sets of body armor and helmets
RIM-7 missiles
Night-vision devices, surveillance systems, thermal imagery systems, optics, and laser rangefinders
AIM-9M missiles
Antiaircraft guns and ammunition
Equipment to integrate with and sustain Ukraine’s systems and to protect critical infrastructure
C-4 and other explosives
Explosive-ordnance-disposal equipment
VAMPIRE anti-drone systems and munitions
M18A1 Claymore mines
Anti-drone gun trucks and ammunition
Anti-tank mines
Anti-drone laser-guided rocket systems
Mine-clearing equipment
Other anti-drone equipment
Obstacle-emplacement equipment
Medical supplies
Field equipment, cold-weather gear, generators,
and spare parts
Air-to-ground missiles
High-speed anti-radiation missiles (HARMs)
Chemical, biological, radiological, and
nuclear protective equipment
Precision aerial munitions
6,000 Zuni aircraft rockets (could function
as air defense)
18 armored bridging systems
Rocket launchers and ammunition
20,000 Hydra-70 aircraft rockets
25mm ammunition
Counter air defense capability
Manned aircraft
Artillery
20 Mi-17 helicopters
198 155mm Howitzers and ammunition
72 105mm Howitzers and ammunition
Explosive and combat drones
47 120mm mortar systems
Switchblade drones
10 82mm mortar systems
Phoenix Ghost drones
112 81mm mortar systems
ALTIUS-600 drones (can also be used for
surveillance)
58 60mm mortar systems
203mm, 152mm, 130mm, 122mm
Munitions
39 HIMAR systems
60,000 122mm Grad rockets
Precision-guided rockets
Surveillance drones
Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb
launchers and ammunition
ScanEagle drones
Puma drones
JUMP 20 drones
Tanks and armored carriers
CyberLux K8 drones
Penguin drones (can also be used as
combat drone)
186 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles
4 Bradley Fire Support Team vehicles
Black Hornet drones
31 Abrams tanks
45 T-72B tanks (via the Czech Republic)
189 Stryker armored personnel carriers
Coastal defense
300 M113 armored personnel carriers
2 Harpoon coastal defense systems
250 M1117 armored security vehicles
62 coastal and riverine patrol boats
300 armored medical-treatment vehicles
Unmanned coastal defense vessels
500 MRAP vehicles
Port and harbor security equipment
125mm, 120mm, and 105mm tank ammunition
Radar and communications
Ground support vehicles
2,000 Humvees
4 satellite communications antennas
931 tactical vehicles
2 radars for drones
200 light tactical vehicles
21 air surveillance radars
80 trucks
70 counter-artillery and counter-
mortar radars
124 trailers
20 multi-mission radars
10 command post vehicles
Tactical secure communications systems
30 ammunition support vehicles
Electronic warfare and counter–electronic
warfare equipment
6 armored utility trucks
8 logistics support vehicles
4 SATCOM antennas
239 fuel tankers and 105 fuel trailers
SATCOM terminals and services
58 water trailers
Satellite services
Note: Some numbers are approximations.
Commercial satellite imagery services

And that's just us. Granted, our contribution is only slightly less than the EU - but the EU as a whole is comparable to the United States both population wise and economically. And while 75-80 billion isn't chump change - and far exceeds the aid we're providing other nations - it's the equivalent of Virginia's state budget for one year.

It is not all being poured down some rabbit hole, although I don't doubt that there's a lot of waste.

With Putin - I don't see it as some kind of strategic grabbing of resources. I see it as him testing the resolve of other nations, because I think if he succeeds in grabbing Ukraine, he won't hesitate to take any non-NATO nation still in its orbit, and will eventually test NATO by going into nations like Poland or the Baltic states. He will almost certainly try to "free" nations like Sebia. He wants a damned empire, and he may live long enough to attempt it.

We've all read history and wondered - why didn't people stand up to Hitler? Couldn't they see what he was doing? When he annexed regions, he claimed he was just taking lands that were already GERMAN - and they belonged with a greater Germany. That right now is exactly what Putin claims. He took Crimea because "it was mostly Russians". He took Abkhazia and South Ossetia because they were Russian anyway. He invaded the Donetsk and Luhansk - because he, they were Russians. And the same case can be made for all of the Baltic states.

I think allowing him to win gives the green light to the rest of the world's despots.

 

[GURPS]

And that's just us.

Do not forget the billions in cash ..... lots going into Volodymyr Zelenskyy's Pockets

we know weapons have vanished into the Black Market ....

 

[vraiblonde]

Infantry arms and equipment
Air defense
10,000 Javelin anti-armor systems
1 Patriot air defense battery and munitions
90,000 other anti-armor systems and munitions
12 NASAM systems
2,000 Stinger anti-aircraft systems
Avenger air defense systems
8,000 TOW missiles
HAWK air defense systems and munitions
35,000 grenade launchers and small arms, with ammunition
Laser-guided rocket systems
AIM-7 missiles
100,000 sets of body armor and helmets
RIM-7 missiles
Night-vision devices, surveillance systems, thermal imagery systems, optics, and laser rangefinders
AIM-9M missiles
Antiaircraft guns and ammunition
Equipment to integrate with and sustain Ukraine’s systems and to protect critical infrastructure
C-4 and other explosives
Explosive-ordnance-disposal equipment
VAMPIRE anti-drone systems and munitions
M18A1 Claymore mines
Anti-drone gun trucks and ammunition
Anti-tank mines
Anti-drone laser-guided rocket systems
Mine-clearing equipment
Other anti-drone equipment
Obstacle-emplacement equipment
Medical supplies
Field equipment, cold-weather gear, generators,
and spare parts
Air-to-ground missiles
High-speed anti-radiation missiles (HARMs)
Chemical, biological, radiological, and
nuclear protective equipment
Precision aerial munitions
6,000 Zuni aircraft rockets (could function
as air defense)
18 armored bridging systems
Rocket launchers and ammunition
20,000 Hydra-70 aircraft rockets
25mm ammunition
Counter air defense capability
Manned aircraft
Artillery
20 Mi-17 helicopters
198 155mm Howitzers and ammunition
72 105mm Howitzers and ammunition
Explosive and combat drones
47 120mm mortar systems
Switchblade drones
10 82mm mortar systems
Phoenix Ghost drones
112 81mm mortar systems
ALTIUS-600 drones (can also be used for
surveillance)
58 60mm mortar systems
203mm, 152mm, 130mm, 122mm
Munitions
39 HIMAR systems
60,000 122mm Grad rockets
Precision-guided rockets
Surveillance drones
Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb
launchers and ammunition
ScanEagle drones
Puma drones
JUMP 20 drones
Tanks and armored carriers
CyberLux K8 drones
Penguin drones (can also be used as
combat drone)
186 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles
4 Bradley Fire Support Team vehicles
Black Hornet drones
31 Abrams tanks
45 T-72B tanks (via the Czech Republic)
189 Stryker armored personnel carriers
Coastal defense
300 M113 armored personnel carriers
2 Harpoon coastal defense systems
250 M1117 armored security vehicles
62 coastal and riverine patrol boats
300 armored medical-treatment vehicles
Unmanned coastal defense vessels
500 MRAP vehicles
Port and harbor security equipment
125mm, 120mm, and 105mm tank ammunition
Radar and communications
Ground support vehicles
2,000 Humvees
4 satellite communications antennas
931 tactical vehicles
2 radars for drones
200 light tactical vehicles
21 air surveillance radars
80 trucks
70 counter-artillery and counter-
mortar radars
124 trailers
20 multi-mission radars
10 command post vehicles
Tactical secure communications systems
30 ammunition support vehicles
Electronic warfare and counter–electronic
warfare equipment
6 armored utility trucks
8 logistics support vehicles
4 SATCOM antennas
239 fuel tankers and 105 fuel trailers
SATCOM terminals and services
58 water trailers
Satellite services
Note: Some numbers are approximations.
Commercial satellite imagery services

And that's just us. Granted, our contribution is only slightly less than the EU - but the EU as a whole is comparable to the United States both population wise and economically. And while 75-80 billion isn't chump change - and far exceeds the aid we're providing other nations - it's the equivalent of Virginia's state budget for one year.

It is not all being poured down some rabbit hole, although I don't doubt that there's a lot of waste.

With Putin - I don't see it as some kind of strategic grabbing of resources. I see it as him testing the resolve of other nations, because I think if he succeeds in grabbing Ukraine, he won't hesitate to take any non-NATO nation still in its orbit, and will eventually test NATO by going into nations like Poland or the Baltic states. He will almost certainly try to "free" nations like Sebia. He wants a damned empire, and he may live long enough to attempt it.

We've all read history and wondered - why didn't people stand up to Hitler? Couldn't they see what he was doing? When he annexed regions, he claimed he was just taking lands that were already GERMAN - and they belonged with a greater Germany. That right now is exactly what Putin claims. He took Crimea because "it was mostly Russians". He took Abkhazia and South Ossetia because they were Russian anyway. He invaded the Donetsk and Luhansk - because he, they were Russians. And the same case can be made for all of the Baltic states.

I think allowing him to win gives the green light to the rest of the world's despots.

So explain to me why it's so much more important to give this money to a foreign country than do things for our own country and our own citizens.

If it was your money - and it is - how much of your personal income are you willing to give to Ukraine? Say a kid comes around with a can and asks you to donate to Ukraine - how much will you give him?

Better yet, say there are two donation bins at the grocery store - one for Ukraine and one for homeless vets - and you can only give to one. Which one will you donate to? Because that's what it comes down to. We can't have nice things in this country or take care of our own because we're sending an enormous chunk of our tax dollars to foreign countries.

This is real money. It's OUR money. WE are donating OUR money. You may like being an endless piggy bank for some shithole country, but I don't.

 

[SamSpade]

Do not forget the billions in cash ..... lots going into Volodymyr Zelenskyy's Pockets

we know weapons have vanished into the Black Market ....

Lots of persons profited greatly from our own War for Independence, although the Founding Fathers weren't among them.
Mostly - financiers who gained LAND. Wars are often fought over that most basic characteristic of humanity - enlightened self-interest.

It's not all going down the drain - lots of Russians are losing their lives, equipment and vehicles, because we're supplying them. They've exhausted their own inventory long ago.

 

[Ken King]

Gee, you must be very old.

One day you might get there sonny.

 

[Kyle]

Lots of persons profited greatly from our own War for Independence, although the Founding Fathers weren't among them.
Mostly - financiers who gained LAND. Wars are often fought over that most basic characteristic of humanity - enlightened self-interest.

It's not all going down the drain - lots of Russians are losing their lives, equipment and vehicles, because we're supplying them. They've exhausted their own inventory long ago.

I really don't want to see a war won or lost by "who goes bankrupt first!"

 

[SamSpade]

So explain to me why it's so much more important to give this money to a foreign country than do things for our own country and our own citizens.

That argument can be made about ANYTHING the government spends money on. We spend between 3-5 trillion on our citizens. It's like spending a few hundred bucks on Christmas - and someone concerned that you spent two bucks on the neighbor.

There are lefties who think the defense budget can be slashed to nearly nothing, because they think the military is TOTALLY a waste of needed money. There's spending all over the government I think is extremely wasteful. We certainly piss away most of the entitlement money - which is the biggest part of the federal budget.

If it was your money - and it is - how much of your personal income are you willing to give to Ukraine?

Comparatively, it amounts to me giving 20 bucks. Yeah, I'd do that. I've given more politically, actually. I've spent more on Girl Scout cookies.

 

[SamSpade]

I really don't want to see a war won or lost by "who goes bankrupt first!"

It's kind of how we won the Cold War.

 

[Kyle]

One day you might get there sonny.

And we didn't have 35 Trillion $$$ of national debt already.

 

[Hijinx]

It's a lot of money.
The part that bothers me is that there is no end to it.
It's 85 Billion dollars here and in another month another 85 Billion dollars.
Zelenski has no intention of seeking peace as long as the money rolls in and he has bodies to toss at the Russians.

No way in hell he can win, and the angst that is being raised over the dead will be around for a hundred years.

 

[vraiblonde]

That argument can be made about ANYTHING the government spends money on. We spend between 3-5 trillion on our citizens. It's like spending a few hundred bucks on Christmas - and someone concerned that you spent two bucks on the neighbor.

There are lefties who think the defense budget can be slashed to nearly nothing, because they think the military is TOTALLY a waste of needed money. There's spending all over the government I think is extremely wasteful. We certainly piss away most of the entitlement money - which is the biggest part of the federal budget.



Comparatively, it amounts to me giving 20 bucks. Yeah, I'd do that. I've given more politically, actually. I've spent more on Girl Scout cookies.

The other question was:

Better yet, say there are two donation bins at the grocery store - one for Ukraine and one for homeless vets - and you can only give to one. Which one will you donate to?

What say you?

 

[somdwatch]

Gee, you must be very old.

and you must be Grumpy!

 

[herb749]

Infantry arms and equipment
Air defense
10,000 Javelin anti-armor systems
1 Patriot air defense battery and munitions
90,000 other anti-armor systems and munitions
12 NASAM systems
2,000 Stinger anti-aircraft systems
Avenger air defense systems
8,000 TOW missiles
HAWK air defense systems and munitions
35,000 grenade launchers and small arms, with ammunition
Laser-guided rocket systems
AIM-7 missiles
100,000 sets of body armor and helmets
RIM-7 missiles
Night-vision devices, surveillance systems, thermal imagery systems, optics, and laser rangefinders
AIM-9M missiles
Antiaircraft guns and ammunition
Equipment to integrate with and sustain Ukraine’s systems and to protect critical infrastructure
C-4 and other explosives
Explosive-ordnance-disposal equipment
VAMPIRE anti-drone systems and munitions
M18A1 Claymore mines
Anti-drone gun trucks and ammunition
Anti-tank mines
Anti-drone laser-guided rocket systems
Mine-clearing equipment
Other anti-drone equipment
Obstacle-emplacement equipment
Medical supplies
Field equipment, cold-weather gear, generators,
and spare parts
Air-to-ground missiles
High-speed anti-radiation missiles (HARMs)
Chemical, biological, radiological, and
nuclear protective equipment
Precision aerial munitions
6,000 Zuni aircraft rockets (could function
as air defense)
18 armored bridging systems
Rocket launchers and ammunition
20,000 Hydra-70 aircraft rockets
25mm ammunition
Counter air defense capability
Manned aircraft
Artillery
20 Mi-17 helicopters
198 155mm Howitzers and ammunition
72 105mm Howitzers and ammunition
Explosive and combat drones
47 120mm mortar systems
Switchblade drones
10 82mm mortar systems
Phoenix Ghost drones
112 81mm mortar systems
ALTIUS-600 drones (can also be used for
surveillance)
58 60mm mortar systems
203mm, 152mm, 130mm, 122mm
Munitions
39 HIMAR systems
60,000 122mm Grad rockets
Precision-guided rockets
Surveillance drones
Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb
launchers and ammunition
ScanEagle drones
Puma drones
JUMP 20 drones
Tanks and armored carriers
CyberLux K8 drones
Penguin drones (can also be used as
combat drone)
186 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles
4 Bradley Fire Support Team vehicles
Black Hornet drones
31 Abrams tanks
45 T-72B tanks (via the Czech Republic)
189 Stryker armored personnel carriers
Coastal defense
300 M113 armored personnel carriers
2 Harpoon coastal defense systems
250 M1117 armored security vehicles
62 coastal and riverine patrol boats
300 armored medical-treatment vehicles
Unmanned coastal defense vessels
500 MRAP vehicles
Port and harbor security equipment
125mm, 120mm, and 105mm tank ammunition
Radar and communications
Ground support vehicles
2,000 Humvees
4 satellite communications antennas
931 tactical vehicles
2 radars for drones
200 light tactical vehicles
21 air surveillance radars
80 trucks
70 counter-artillery and counter-
mortar radars
124 trailers
20 multi-mission radars
10 command post vehicles
Tactical secure communications systems
30 ammunition support vehicles
Electronic warfare and counter–electronic
warfare equipment
6 armored utility trucks
8 logistics support vehicles
4 SATCOM antennas
239 fuel tankers and 105 fuel trailers
SATCOM terminals and services
58 water trailers
Satellite services
Note: Some numbers are approximations.
Commercial satellite imagery services

And that's just us. Granted, our contribution is only slightly less than the EU - but the EU as a whole is comparable to the United States both population wise and economically. And while 75-80 billion isn't chump change - and far exceeds the aid we're providing other nations - it's the equivalent of Virginia's state budget for one year.

It is not all being poured down some rabbit hole, although I don't doubt that there's a lot of waste.

With Putin - I don't see it as some kind of strategic grabbing of resources. I see it as him testing the resolve of other nations, because I think if he succeeds in grabbing Ukraine, he won't hesitate to take any non-NATO nation still in its orbit, and will eventually test NATO by going into nations like Poland or the Baltic states. He will almost certainly try to "free" nations like Sebia. He wants a damned empire, and he may live long enough to attempt it.

We've all read history and wondered - why didn't people stand up to Hitler? Couldn't they see what he was doing? When he annexed regions, he claimed he was just taking lands that were already GERMAN - and they belonged with a greater Germany. That right now is exactly what Putin claims. He took Crimea because "it was mostly Russians". He took Abkhazia and South Ossetia because they were Russian anyway. He invaded the Donetsk and Luhansk - because he, they were Russians. And the same case can be made for all of the Baltic states.

I think allowing him to win gives the green light to the rest of the world's despots.

And the billions being used to keep the govt going and people paid.

 

[somdwatch]

It's kind of how we won the Cold War.

And if we don't wake up NOW it will be how Communism (Russia, China, NK, Iran) win this one. The piggy bank is very close to broke.

 

[stgislander]

Zuni... that's an old rocket.

 

[Kinnakeet]

It's kind of how we won the Cold War.

Reagan out spent the Ruskies

 

[Clem72]

This is real money. It's OUR money. WE are donating OUR money. You may like being an endless piggy bank for some shithole country, but I don't.

I agree with your sentiment, but you saw the list. Most of what we sent was weapons/armor/munitions/services most of which are made or provided by US companies. So this was a big gift to US defense contractors with a hefty shipping and handling fee.

 

[vraiblonde]

I agree with your sentiment, but you saw the list. Most of what we sent was weapons/armor/munitions/services most of which are made or provided by US companies. So this was a big gift to US defense contractors with a hefty shipping and handling fee.

How does that help the average American?

 

[SamSpade]

The other question was:



What say you?

Not sure - it doesn't have to be only one, obviously.

But if it does - which is more likely to have a greater impact? It depends on your perspective.

I've taken care of homeless people and brought them into my home - and it always ended badly. Part of me views taking care of homeless - no matter what their background - as an ultimately fruitless endeavor unless carried out by persons with superior skills.

I can see that you believe that the war in Ukraine similarly. Just money poured down a hole. The tragedies in Ukraine are being superseded by those in Gaza - but for the atrocities that horrify us on Oct 7 - there are many times more, in Ukraine. For all the children kidnapped in Gaza - there are tens of thousands of women and children kidnapped by Russians, and they are now who knows where, in Russia, lost to human trafficking.

All growing up - I encountered people who still had the anti-military hatred so prevalent during Vietnam. That all military persons were blood thirsty war mongers. I tried in vain to convince them, there's NO ONE who hates war more than the men who bravely fight in them.

So which will help more? Helping a vet find a warm place to sleep? Helping him with his addiction?
Helping a Ukrainian oligarch line his pockets? Save a child from being sold, or a family from being shot so that soldiers can take their food?

Which do you trust more?

I feel that the press - at least, the right-wing press - is trying to convince me otherwise. I am not buying it. I don't know which is better. There's no single better choice but - I have my opinion on which might be served BETTER, overall.

It's a throw of the dice.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

We can afford both.

But republicans keep voting all those things down.

Heck they voted down children's summer feeding programs.

These foreign countries are called Alies and it is our duty to help defend them against our sworn enemies you know like Russian and Putin . That is what being part of NATO is all about.


Republican governors in 15 states are rejecting a new federally funded program to give food assistance to hungry children during the summer months, denying benefits to 8 million children across the country.

The program is expected to serve 21 million youngsters starting around June, providing $2.5 billion in relief across the country.

The governors have given varying reasons for refusing to take part, from the price tag to the fact that the final details of the plan have yet to be worked out. Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds (R) said she saw no need to add money to a program that helps food-insecure youths “when childhood obesity has become an epidemic.” Nebraska Gov. Jim Pillen (R) said bluntly, “I don’t believe in welfare.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/01/10/republican-governors-summer-lunch-program/

How many different programs do there need to be? The many different programs make it impossible to manage. There are already many many programs that exist. If an American child is hungry today it is the fault of their parents. No amount of government money will fix this short of one that removes these children from their parents.