Belief in God 'childish,' Jews not chosen people:

This_person

Well-Known Member
But i dont see Einstein disproving it for theological reasons, i see him disproving it because it went against what he believed (the universe always was).
Other than him saying he was against it for theological reasons, and arguing that the science was good but the thought was bad, I don't know what else to say. Read what he had to say on it. :shrug:
As to Einstein holding onto his Theory over the Big Bang, that is the way a Peer Review is supposed to work.
Open minded skeptisism, yes. Blatant denial because it disagrees with your own personal views, no.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I'm not the one arguing Einstein was against the Big Bang for theological reasons.

Your example doesnt show where Einsteins claimed any such thing. It does quote Eddington (who's not Einstein) statements about it being to close to Theology, but the article then lumps Einstein in as being similiar without any proof. Solely because Eddington (who's not Einstein) did feel that way.

Your article then goes on and states that Einstein was against the Big Bang because it ran counter to his "Universe Always was" theory, which sounds like Eintstiens reasoning way ahead of any theological one
Well, except that his "reasoning" wasn't scientifically based. He decided the physics, the math, was right. But, it sounded like creation, therefore it must be wrong and HE must be right - even in the face of conflicting information.

That's kind of my point all along. His mind was not open. His reason for choosing a constant universe was, I'm sure, ego driven as well as anti-theologic driven, but it was still anti-theology (at least in part).

His ideology was kinda the point of the original post starting the thread, too. :lol:
 

wildsage

earthling
keep trying

...and was unjustifiable from a physical point of view.
Einstein was ALL about the physics, it was the math that he distrusted:
"Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater."

Your example doesnt show where Einsteins claimed any such thing.
Nope, it does not.

And besides, scientific research obviously did not come to a screeching halt for "several decades" because the god of E=mc<sup>2</sup> pulled a boner. Don't you think that the contemporary minds were just DYING to get a contrary opinion considered seriously? I suspect that the young guns were lined up trying to disprove the old master.
I contend that Einstein was irreligious, not bothering himself with that side of the cosmological arguments until someone with an agenda tried to put him in a position that he didn't choose: "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views." And his reaction was the same with either side.
 

fuzzywzhe

New Member
His bigotry against ideas other than non-religious ones is why he could not accept the Big Bang Theory - sounded too much like Genesis. Of course, it's the accepted theory, today.

More proof that scientists do NOT have open minds.

This is absolutely not untrue.

Einstein was the champion of the "big bang theory". This theory originated from George LeMaitre, a Belgian priest. The theory was named the big bang theory not by either Einstein or LeMaitre but by the detractors of the theory in the scientific community to denigrate it. After Hubble's Law had been published, Einstein endorsed LeMaitre's "big bang theory", since Hubble's Law shows that the universe is apparently expanding and this explains why we see red shift nearly everywhere we look in the universe. Previously, it was believed by almost the entire scientific community that we lived in a static universe that had no beginning and would have no end.

LeMaitre predicted a background radiation that would be expected to exist if there really was a beginning of the universe. In 1964 Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias accidentally observed this background radiation for the first time, and their measurements were consistent with LeMaitre's prediction of the intensity of the signal. These two won a Nobel Prize for this discovery, however there is still contention as to whether the big bang actually happened although it's widely accepted as scientific fact by most people today.

If Einstein had any bigotry with regard to science, it was his belief that a model could precisely predict the actions of particles. He did not (originally) believe in the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and argued at length with Bohr over this, Bohr proved him wrong using Einstein's own equations. You may know this argument from Einstein's famous quote "God does not play dice". You can know that Einstein abandoned his belief because the Boise Einstein condensate is named after him, and exhibits the property of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. In science, to progress, you have to admit when you're wrong. In the pursuit to understand the natural world there have been far more failures than successes, but the successes are kept and built upon. Every scientist makes errors, it's impossible not to.

If you want to criticize scientists, at least get what they actually professed correct. A good scientist's mind is often limited (but not always), to observable fact, because scientific discipline makes the assumption that everything in the universe can be explained by cause and effect that nothing has a supernatural explanation. After all, a scientist can't ram a proton traveling at 99.999999% the speed of light into a substance, observe odd behavior and say "well, God did it". You may want to regard that as a limitation of science, this sort of disciplined thinking has utterly revolutionized the world.

I would like to point out that when Christianity dominated Europe in culture and education it was called the Dark Ages. During this time a man by the name of Bruno was burned at the stake for claiming that stars were other suns (among other more radical and wrong ideas), and Galileo almost saw the same fate for implying the Earth wasn't actually the center of the Universe.

I would humbly like to suggest that based on my observation of the past, that scientists have much more open minds than religious dogmatists. Perhaps you would like to inspect your own openmindedness.

I would also like to point out that over our lifetimes our opinions and personal beliefs do change. I was rather surprised to see Einstein be so blunt with regard to atheism. Although I cannot know for certain, I rather doubt Einstein always had this hardened a view. Einstein has made many statements on religion, and I've never seen him be less evasive than in this particular quote. It's very surprising to me.

As an aside, I should disclose that I am an atheist myself, although I think it's likely I'll take Pascal's Wager at some point while I lie on my deathbed but I'll never accept Christianity I'm certain. I cannot believe the one true religion can have such a history. Perhaps I will become a Jain, they are non violent, have never had a war or an Inquisition or a Crusade. They believe that the ultimate sin is to harm others, and by others, animals are included in that, even plants are. I would have to agree at least partially with that philosophy, it's very compelling anyhow - to strive to hurt as little as possible throughout your lifetime. That philosophy doesn't seem to exist in any Judeo religion which I think is great pity and most ironically of all, many Christians consider such a religion a false religion undoubtedly created by Lucifer. I often wonder why Christians never consider the possibility that their own religion is a creation of Lucifer.
 
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This_person

Well-Known Member
And thats the point, from what are you basing that Einstein didnt like the Big Bang theory because it sounded like Creation? Eddington is not Einstein, and Eddington is the one who claimed that.

Once again, your interjecting your interpretation about Einstein, without any proof.

Einstein = Hardheaded = True

Einstein = Against the Big Bang because it mirrors Theology = False
Okay, now YOU've made the claim, thus the burden of proof has shifted.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
haha nice try :razz:

refuting YOUR claim doesnt mean i've created my own

And thats my point isnt it? You made this claim without any proof, now your asking me to prove a negative. I cant' prove Einstein DIDNT do something, but the burden is upon you to prove he DID do something.

I havent seen anything, FROM EINSTEIN, that states he was against the Big Bang because of Theological ties/reasons, YOU made this claim, and used a shady article that doesnt support that claim to prove it.

Nevermind here i'll "prove" it for ya :

Nowhere in that quote did he state he was against the Big Bang for theological reasons.
OKay, I'll restate my claim, since you seeem to think it really, really, really really matters.

He was originally against the big bang theory.

He stated the big bang theory sounded like creation.

He was against religious concepts guiding scientific exploration.

He claimed the math was good, but that the math didn't mean anything in this case.

Only when forced to acknowledge that his theory was not as strong as the other through peer review did he even begin to acknowledge the possibility.

At the time the big bang theory was originally discussed openly, the pope claimed it "proved" Genesis. The theological side of the discussion was all about the big bang.

Did I mention he hated theology getting in the way of scientific exploits?

From this, draw your conclusions (I can only find religious sources, which admittedly may be biased, that support my claim, which is why I don't cite them).
 

bcp

In My Opinion
interesting, those that cry about people being bigots, turn out to be the biggest on the forum.
keep it up rangers
 

bcp

In My Opinion
awww, we pointed out that 2ndA is a flawed, hateful, scornful, petty little man and he ran away. what ever will we do?


It doens't really matter, because if God is the one he believes in, Jesus knows 2ndA is a nonrepentent hater and we all know what happens to the unrepented sinners :lmao:
the will be reincarnated with someones crank up their butt and turn out to be a joke of nature?

its just a guess
 

fuzzywzhe

New Member
Okay, now YOU've made the claim, thus the burden of proof has shifted.

Click and start going through the links:

georges lemaitre einstein big bang - Google Search

Everything I've said is very well documented.

I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to correct you. I really don't care what you believe, but I do care when other people believe incorrect statements. If you want to continue to make them, that doesn't only seem dishonest, but sinful to me.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Click and start going through the links:

georges lemaitre einstein big bang - Google Search

Everything I've said is very well documented.

I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to correct you. I really don't care what you believe, but I do care when other people believe incorrect statements. If you want to continue to make them, that doesn't only seem dishonest, but sinful to me.
I actually wasn't talking to you, unless you've become Nucklesack recently.

What you've said is only partially true. Einstein did not originally embrace the Big Bang theory, he strongly critisized it. He EVENTUALLY embraced it.

We can debate why he originally thought it wrong. Was it religion? Was it ego for his own pet theory? Was it both (this is my belief based on the reading I've done)?

As an atheist, your views on what constitute sinful behavior are really kind of silly, don't you think? However, my understandings are not dishonest, as you suggest. They're merely informed.
 

fuzzywzhe

New Member
What you've said is only partially true. Einstein did not originally embrace the Big Bang theory, he strongly critisized it. He EVENTUALLY embraced it.

Yes, this may be true, that Einstein didn't originally believe LeMaite was correct, people are often wrong in discovering new things in nature. LeMaitre has absolutely no evidence when he first proposed the idea, and there was no observable data when LeMaitre first came up with the idea to support LeMaitre's theory.

But Einstein didn't originally dismiss it because of religious reasons. Einstein dismissed it for the same reason I dismiss the concept of god - there wasn't any hard evidence of it. The very second hard evidence showed up Einstein was forced by the very discipline of science to admit he was wrong and LeMaitre was probably right. It's still quite possible through that LeMaitre was wrong.

To state that Einstein dismissed LeMatire's idea on religious grounds is absurd.

To be strictly fair, LeMaitre actually jumped the gun because his theory of a creation event of the universe had no observable evidence at the time LeMaitre first suggested the idea.

As an atheist, your views on what constitute sinful behavior are really kind of silly, don't you think? However, my understandings are not dishonest, as you suggest. They're merely informed.

If you want to believe you're informed, when it's clear to me that you are not, that's your business. I frequently find myself wrong, and when I discover I am wrong, I see to it that I correct myself. Over time, I become more correct and as a result I grow as an individual. It is a humbling experience to learn.

In my personal opinion, misleading people, that would seem quite wrong to me. Your statements about why Einstein initially didn't believe in the big bang theory is either based off from ignorance, or it's based off from dishonesty, I see no other possibility.

I'd like to point out that before you right now is the most powerful research tool ever made by mankind. Go ahead and put it to use and do it with an open mind.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Yes, this may be true, that Einstein didn't originally believe LeMaite was correct, people are often wrong in discovering new things in nature. LeMaitre has absolutely no evidence when he first proposed the idea, and there was no observable data when LeMaitre first came up with the idea to support LeMaitre's theory.
Yet, Albert saw the math was correct. Hmmm.
But Einstein didn't originally dismiss it because of religious reasons.
Did he tell you this? Did he write all of his reasons down to read? If so, please link.
Einstein dismissed it for the same reason I dismiss the concept of god - there wasn't any hard evidence of it. The very second hard evidence showed up Einstein was forced by the very discipline of science to admit he was wrong and LeMaitre was probably right.
Well, except he STILL didn't believe it when the red shift was demonstrated. It took him some time AFTER that to accept it. Hmmmmm.
It's still quite possible through that LeMaitre was wrong.
I agree. It's a hypothesis that is untestable and unprovable. There's merely evidence that supports the hypothesis. However, that evidence could support another hypothesis, and be no less true than it is now (as would that other hypothesis).
To state that Einstein dismissed LeMatire's idea on religious grounds is absurd.
Why? Because of his strong religious beliefs? Because he referred to it as "creation", implying that the theory implied a creator (as opposed to "sh!t happens" theory of science)? What makes it absurd, other than you don't agree?
To be strictly fair, LeMaitre actually jumped the gun because his theory of a creation event of the universe had no observable evidence at the time LeMaitre first suggested the idea.
That's what hypotheses are for.
If you want to believe you're informed, when it's clear to me that you are not, that's your business.
Golly, thanks.
I frequently find myself wrong,
:faint: :lol:
and when I discover I am wrong, I see to it that I correct myself. Over time, I become more correct and as a result I grow as an individual. It is a humbling experience to learn.

In my personal opinion, misleading people, that would seem quite wrong to me. Your statements about why Einstein initially didn't believe in the big bang theory is either based off from ignorance, or it's based off from dishonesty, I see no other possibility.
That YOU can see no other possibility does not mean there is not another possibility
I'd like to point out that before you right now is the most powerful research tool ever made by mankind. Go ahead and put it to use and do it with an open mind.
And, I do. I also use those "book" things.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
That's a link back to this forum. Again, I would very much like to see Einstein using religion to justify his position on science from a reputable source.
I got some really good advice recently, to help you in that quest:
I'd like to point out that before you right now is the most powerful research tool ever made by mankind. Go ahead and put it to use and do it with an open mind.
 

fuzzywzhe

New Member
Yet, Albert saw the math was correct. Hmmm.

Math is nothing more than a tool, it doesn't describe absolute reality.

Nearly all theories, if not all theories, are wrong, strictly speaking. Newton's laws are wrong because it makes the statement there is no such thing as relativity, so relatively is a refinement of the Newton's theory, but relativity is also wrong, because quantum mechanics isn't part of it. QM has been shown to be good predictor at a atomic scale, but it doesn't predict relativity.

Einstein spent the end of his life looking to bring together both QM and Relativity in search of the Theory of Everything, or TOE. Recently, string theory has become this possible theory but string theory is so complicated that maybe a dozen people on the planet it understand it and it's far from proven.

Did he tell you this? Did he write all of his reasons down to read?

I know how the scientific discipline advances. It's a humiliating endeavor where almost all the ideas you come up with prove to be incorrect over time. Do you think Galileo was happy to go up against the church? Do you think Bruno was happy to be burned at the stake?

When you practice the scientific discipline you have to abandon personal prejudices simply because science necessitates it. Galileo risked his own safety to do it, Bruno died for it.

If so, please link.Well, except he STILL didn't believe it when the red shift was demonstrated.

No, this is not true.

When the red shift was observed, the only conclusion that anybody was able to make was that the universe was expanding, and that's when Einstein became the champion of the big bang theory. Of course it took some time to formulate an explanation of why red shift was seen everywhere, but it didn't take long. Today, there is still only one explanation that anybody can reasonably come up with - that the universe is expanding.

With this new evidence, today known as Hubble's Law, Einstein had to admit his initial error, and not only admitted he was wrong, but promoted the idea from that point forward. It was Einstein's acceptance of the big bang theory that advanced it's acceptance widely throughout the scientific community.

When Hubble's Law was published, Einstein very quickly endorsed LeMaitre's concept of the big bang.

However, that evidence could support another hypothesis

Really?

What other hypothesis could this be?
 

fuzzywzhe

New Member
I got some really good advice recently, to help you in that quest:

fuzzywzhe said:
Originally Posted by fuzzywzhe View Post
I'd like to point out that before you right now is the most powerful research tool ever made by mankind. Go ahead and put it to use and do it with an open mind.

I am, of course, using the internet.

Georges Lemaître - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Einstein at first dismissed Friedman and then (privately) Lemaître out of hand, saying that not all mathematics leads to correct theories. After Hubble's discovery was published, Einstein quickly and publicly endorsed Lemaître's theory, helping both the theory and priest get fast recognition. [4]"

Big Bang (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
When you practice the scientific discipline you have to abandon personal prejudices simply because science necessitates it.
And, AE didn't do that. He clung to his theory, regardless of the information provided, and ridiculed the person and idea of dissent from HIS opinion.
When the red shift was observed, the only conclusion that anybody was able to make was that the universe was expanding, and that's when Einstein became the champion of the big bang theory.
Reluctantly, eventually had to agree. How very open minded of him.
Really?

What other hypothesis could this be?
You already know my answer will be ID. However, an enterprising writer could certainly come up with others.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
He/She asked for proof that EINSTEIN refuted the Big Bang because of Creationism.

We're all still waiting for you to prove that
My answer in that link was to state that I cannot prove it through non-biased sites, but only through his beliefs.
 
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