Bumper sticker rant

[Tonio]

I think Southerners and wannabes display the Rebel flag because they think it's cool, not because they're trying to make a political statement. Sort of like those Che Guevera t-shirts the kids wear - no idea what it really means, they just think it looks cool. If you questioned them about it - "So what part of the former Confederacy are you supporting? Slave ownership? State's Rights? Hoopskirts?" you'd just get a blank stare.

I think you're right. Truthfully, the flag as a symbol doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that the men who flew the flag in the 1960s were willing to commit murder to defend segregation. The people you describe probably don't know about that either.

 

[Softballkid]

The old man has a big ole confederate flag on his work room wall. It says "Heritage Not Hate" on it.

EXACTLY.....I have confederate flags, pictures and all that, and it doesnt have anything to do with being white supremist, or racist or anything like that, its heritage....

The war was about SO MUCH more than slavery, but it seems that many people who see the flag, go straight to that excuse...

I feel sorry for the ones who have the flags and call themselves rebels, I hate all that aint white, .... but for those who have the backround in there blood, the heritage types, who have actually read into what it was truely about, I totally respect that. Slavery was one of the SMALLEST reasons of the war.... And it is documented that the south would have won the war, if they hadnt ran short on supplies... how the north was plentished with them, and the south wasnt... Mississippi still has the confederate flad in there state flag, but you dont see riots due to that in Mississippi...

I just think that when it comes down to Confederate Flags in all, there are those who give "us" heritage types bad names, but its not right to think that when you see one, its all about hatred...

Just my 1cent, sorta away from topic, sorta on... I guess it all comes down to "dont judge a book by its cover" just because you see some one with a flag....

Though I will admit, that bumper sticker about fighting terrorism was pretty dumb.

 

[Railroad]

Being that it was a "Southern" bumper sticker, I'm pretty sure not that much thought was put into it.. and if you mentioned the civil war they probably would look at ya with the 1000 yard stare and exclaim.. Huh? Whatchu talkin about?

Little ol Billy Bob just thought it was pretty darn funny..

 

[Ponytail]

Hang out in the Pine Barrens of NJ, and you'll see more Confederate Flags in one day than you've seen anywhere else prolly in your lifetime. I will bet my last dollar, that 99.9% of those folks, like most around here and elsewhere that fly it, think of that flag as nothing more that a rebellious symbol, without much thought or knowledge of what the flags origins are nor what the flag represented, unless they are closet (or not so) white supremists. And I have had several personal encounters with them in St Mary's County since living here.

Folks that are offended by the rebel flag normally have some ties to it's origins. Not always though. I am not offended by it. But I am a person that can appreciate what we learn from history. It's another reminder of this country's not-so perfect past, and a symbol of how far we've come as a country in what is a comparitively, VERY short time frame.

It's unfortunate that ignorance advertises so loudly, but to me it's like a blue light for tards. If they wanna fly the flag or stickers with such sayings, without the knowledge or understanding, let them. Kinda goes along with the saying, "Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer." I like to avoid ignorance at all costs. Advertising ignorance makes it VERY easy for me.

 

[vraiblonde]

I like to avoid ignorance at all costs. Advertising ignorance makes it VERY easy for me.

Amen, brotha.

If you saw some truck with a Union Jack sticker on the bumper, wouldn't you think that was dumb? Well, I think displaying a Confederate flag is dumb.

:shrug:

 

[sockgirl77]

My favorite bumper sticker is "My other ride is your mom".

http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=830662&postcount=84

 

[Toxick]

Truthfully, the flag as a symbol doesn't bother me.

It bothers me.

I don't think the rebel flag signifies racism or any similar baloney; and I'm quite sure it has everything to do with regional pride - whatever that is.

However that flag is the primary symbol of an insurrection that almost destroyed this country. It is the flag of traitors and insurgency. Flying that flag is anti-american, IMO.

That may not be the intention of those flying it, but that's what it means to me.

 

[camily]

Hey Tonio, I thought of you the other day. Post #13.
http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?p=1356527&highlight=tonio#post1356527

 

[MMDad]

The thing that cracks me up is that people talk "heritage not hate" without knowing anything about that flag. It was the battle flag of the Army of Tennesee. It was also the 2nd Naval Jack. It didn't gain popularity until 1948 when it bacame the symbol of the Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) who had an extremely racist viewpoint. That's why many people are offended by it - it was used as a symbol of hate in modern times.

If people really wanted to celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy, they would use the Third National Flag.

The flag, or the Che shirt, or the hats with an X are all signs. It shows that you care about symbolism rather than what it stands for. Che was all about the revolution, so celebrating him instead of the revolution is against everything he stood for. Malcom X had a dream and an ideal, and he'd probably be offended by people using the X and not living the way of life he espoused.

 

[Tonio]

It didn't gain popularity until 1948 when it bacame the symbol of the Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) who had an extremely racist viewpoint. That's why many people are offended by it - it was used as a symbol of hate in modern times.

A while ago I read a first-person account of the March to Montgomery. Very horrifying.

 

[tirdun]

Slavery was one of the SMALLEST reasons of the war.... And it is documented that the south would have won the war, if they hadnt ran short on supplies... how the north was plentished with them, and the south wasnt... Mississippi still has the confederate flad in there state flag, but you dont see riots due to that in Mississippi

You have no idea what the Civil War was really about. Go take an American History class so that you don't come accross as such an uninformed, loud mouthed, dolt.

You are both without question wrong.

Slavery was the central reason for the Civil War. The South wanted to maintain an economic system that had supported it for a century. The North was not blameless, a northern-led Congress had put increasing pressure on the Southern economy and was making moves to stifle southern exports. However you want to slice it, though, the South's primary motivation for the civil war was slavery. The North+Lincoln's primary motivation was maintaining the union, partly so as to have unfettered access to southern goods and materials.

Since Mississippi was mentioned, here is part of its declaration of secession:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery the greatest material interest of the world. [...] a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Some other Secession Declarations:
South Carolina They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection
Georgia: he prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees it its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.,
Texas: maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.,

Or ask Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA what the war was about. I suspect he might know:

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery,subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

The claim that Lincoln was a terrorist or didn't free the slaves will probably come up. In truth, Lincoln violated the constitution several times. The Emancipation Proclamation was a tool to undermine the South's war effort and only affected slaves in the CSA. Neither of these facts changes the motivation for the war.

OH, and the "south would have won the war" is a hilarious bit of nonsense. Name any loser in any war and they "would have won" if only they hadn't [insert reason here]. The North had industrial might that the South could not even touch. The North had a supply line to Europe that the South did not. The North could, quite simply, put boots and blankets on the men where the South couldn't. AND THE SOUTH KNEW THIS. The South knew it was outgunned, and fought the war knowing they had to rely on home-field advantage. There was never a plan to invade the North other than border positions and Washington DC. The South hoped to win by wearing down the resolve of the Northern armies through a defense of Southern land. All the south had to do was stalemate the North and bunker down. They couldn't and they lost.

 

[awg9tech]

However that flag is the primary symbol of an insurrection that almost destroyed this country. It is the flag of traitors and insurgency. Flying that flag is anti-american, IMO.

That may not be the intention of those flying it, but that's what it means to me.

“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

Yep, sounds like secession to me

 

[MMDad]

“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

Yep, sounds like secession to me

Yep, you backed up Toxick's post rather well. I trace a some of my ancestry to North Carolina. They were secessionists, and deserved to get the snot beat out of them. It has always been true that the victors in a war believe they are just, and the losers are considered unjust. However, in most countries, they aren't allowed to brag about being rebels. Toxick is right. It is very unamerican to fly a rebel flag, and to talk about things like "the south shall rise again". However, it is very American for us to allow these pinheads to do so.

 

[vraiblonde]

"the south shall rise again"

I never understood what that meant. As far as I can tell, the South as a region is doing just fine.

 

[Toxick]

Yep, sounds like secession to me

Sounds like it to me also : and if I recall correctly, the Founding Fathers duly acknowledged their treason, and realized they could be hanged for their actions.

However, back to the rebel flag: since the Confederation lost, and is currently once more a part of the Union, flying the banner of their unsuccessful rebellion celebrates the treason against the United States.

Much like if England had won, flying Ol' Glory would be celebrating the unsuccessful rebellion against England, rather than earning Independance.

 

[tirdun]

“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another [...]”

You are quoting the Declaration of Independence. While it is a great document, it holds no bearing on the law of this nation.

The Constitution of the United States, then, forms a government, not a league, [...]. It is a government in which all the people are represented, which operates directly on the people individually, not upon the States; they retained all the power they did not grant. But each State having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with the other States a single nation, cannot from that period possess any right to secede, because such secession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation, and any injury to that unity is not only a breach which would result from the contravention of a compact, but it is an offense against the whole Union. To say that any State may at pleasure secede from the Union, is to say that the United States are not a nation. --Andrew Jackson--

As for the flag, regardless of what values specific individuals place upon it, the symbol has been widely accepted as one of racial inequality, bigotry and hatred. Whatever honor or sacrifice the soldiers of the South endured, unless displayed in a historical context the flag carries those meanings. Without a major change in popular opinion, that is the only value it will ever hold. You can argue the nature and subjectivity of symbolism all you wish, but symbols represent what the majority believes they represent and displaying that symbol ties you, willingly or not, to that belief.

 

[MMDad]

I never understood what that meant. As far as I can tell, the South as a region is doing just fine.

Yet the 'necks keep saying it. Go figure.

 

[awg9tech]

You can argue the nature and subjectivity of symbolism all you wish, but symbols represent what the majority believes they represent and displaying that symbol ties you, willingly or not, to that belief.

Therefore we must conduct polls daily, nay, hourly to reach consensus on such matters least we offend said majority!(?)

 

[tirdun]

Therefore we must conduct polls daily, nay, hourly to reach consensus on such matters least we offend said majority!(?)

The flag carries a justified stigma of racism and hatred, due to its Civil War history combined with its adoption by post-war racist groups.

If you want to trivialize all the pain tied into that banner as "popular opinion" via your petty little rant, feel free. You will not, however, convince most people that flying the Confederate flag outside a historical setting is anything but a badge of racist hatred.

Presenting a recognized symbol has clear and understandable consequences. If I put pink triangles and rainbows all over my car, people will assume I am gay. If I wear a Star of David, people will assume I am Jewish. I can claim all I wish that those symbols represent something other than what popular opinion has dictated, but I have no grounds to question why people have made assumptions about me.

You have every right to fly that flag or wear a shirt lauding some claimed heritage, and we have every right to assume you are at best callous and at worst a racist.

 

[Bustem' Down]

The thing that cracks me up is that people talk "heritage not hate" without knowing anything about that flag. It was the battle flag of the Army of Tennesee. It was also the 2nd Naval Jack. It didn't gain popularity until 1948 when it bacame the symbol of the Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) who had an extremely racist viewpoint. That's why many people are offended by it - it was used as a symbol of hate in modern times.

If people really wanted to celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy, they would use the Third National Flag.

It's nice to find people who actually know what the Flag of the CSA actually was.