Bumper sticker rant

[willie]

2A, come on, Polish, you know they were lucky to have the shapes meet in the middle.

Polish pistol

 

[willie]

There's a house on H.G.Trueman Road about perhaps a bit less than a mile or so north of Middleham Chapel that's got a Confederate Flag flying in the yard. I've bicycled past the place regularly and have never seen anything strangely amiss about the place, or anything like that, so I personally see no offense, but several of the folks in our church are really upset about it. I've never considered invading this family's privacy to demand any sort of explanation for their choice of flag, and I refuse to join a few of my fellow church members who are insistent upon accosting them about the presumed offense.

But then I'm a newcomer, having moved to Maryland from Nebraska in 1967. I just don't understand. I really don't know all about what a Confederate Flag is supposed to be a symbol of.

That flag has been there for a lot of years, possibly back when that was RT 4.

 

[MMDad]

That flag has been there for a lot of years, possibly back when that was RT 4.

Yep, probably a dixiecrat flag. Learn from history or repeat it.

 

[Tonio]

Civil War historian and southerner Shelby Foote, stated "The CSA flag traditionally represented the south's resistance to northern political dominance generally; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement, when protecting segregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance. A 1994 Harris poll showed that 68% of blacks nationwide did not find the flag offensive. That same poll showed 92% of southern people, of all races, did not find it offensive. "

Thanks for the quote. Foote is right--it's not the flag itself that's offensive. What is offensive was the evil of segregation, or "our way of life" in the parlance of Strom Thurmond.

And the North had its own shameful history of segregation before the civil rights era. Many Northern cities had versions of Jim Crow designed to discriminate not just against blacks, but also against Irish and Jewish people. Unlike the South, the North had the concept of "sundown towns," like Dearborn, Mich., Appleton, Wis., and all of Maryland's Garrett County. It was hypocritical of the North to claim to be enlightened on racial matters.

 

[RoseRed]

This is purdy...

 

[awg9tech]

YOUR words in post 38 of this thread suggest some popularity contest.

Quite the contrary. You have mentioned several times that “it’s what the majority think” defines the meaning of the flag. And my statement in “post 38” reiterated YOUR point.
I know of only two ways to indicate “what the majority think”
1. Take a vote
I know of no such legislation on the floor
2. Take a poll
And if you’re going to do that, might as well make it a standing poll so that no one can claim that “that’s an old poll”, and we can then gauge the pulse of YOUR majority least we offend them.

Alas, you have shown no such majority. The only one to do so is:

A 1994 Harris poll showed that 68% of blacks nationwide did not find the flag offensive. That same poll showed 92% of southern people, of all races, did not find it offensive. "

So given your criteria (the majority), which you have stated many times, the flag is not offensive. We have no standing poll to discount it otherwise.

If I see the CSA battle flag, I am fully justified in taking at face value what that person is advertising.

And you have clearly proven using YOUR criteria, the flag is not offensive.

 

[MMDad]

Quite the contrary. You have mentioned several times that “it’s what the majority think” defines the meaning of the flag. And my statement in “post 38” reiterated YOUR point.
I know of only two ways to indicate “what the majority think”
1. Take a vote
I know of no such legislation on the floor
2. Take a poll
And if you’re going to do that, might as well make it a standing poll so that no one can claim that “that’s an old poll”, and we can then gauge the pulse of YOUR majority least we offend them.

Alas, you have shown no such majority. The only one to do so is:

So given your criteria (the majority), which you have stated many times, the flag is not offensive. We have no standing poll to discount it otherwise.


And you have clearly proven using YOUR criteria, the flag is not offensive.

You have gotten so fixated on replying to imagined insults that you have forgotten the debate. Please start from the begining, formulate an opinion, and ask a question or state an opinion. Your "I said You said" crap is worthless.

 

[Larry Gude]

In defense of the flag...

...the fact that the war was simply about slavery does not automatically make the flag a symbol of racism and does not automatically disqualify the meaning and intention of displaying it today and does not automatically mean there is nothing about 'Southern' heritage or 'way of life' that is good and worth holding onto and celebrating.

If you wear a white hood and display the stars and bars, chances are real good you don't mean well.

If you wish to celebrate the spirit of rebellion and independence that says 'you can't tell me what to do' that resides in all of us in some measure, that is a very American and worthy thing.

It is critical to understand that while the war was about slavery it was NOT about making equality. A great many Northern troops and officers were white supremacists as well; quite naturally so. Who would think a slave or even an ex-slave as their equal? People have a tendency to look down, in some fashion, on anyone 'below' them; the trash man, a waitress, the lawn guy. Imagine how most would look at a person who not only did those jobs 140 years ago, but had to?

The war was about being created equal, about the wrongness of slavery as an institution, in and of itself. Since then, over 140 years, we've pretty well taken care of the equal outcome part of equality in that a persons color is no longer a limitation, nor gender. We've reached the point where a black female is openly and seriously discussed as a viable Presidential candidate, the top job in the nation. Blacks at all other levels of our society, from business owner to doctor to professor and so on is common enough to not merit notice any more.

Much is written of race in our nation and much is to be learned from it. There are numerous stories of GI's coming back from Europe after WWII and of fights breaking out on the long boring ride home. The army was segregated at the time but there was much co-mingling and relaxing of rules in the euphoria of victory and the wars end.

More often than not, the scrapes divided along regional lines, North vs. South, than color lines. An awful lot of Southern heritage is NOT about a whip or cotton or white supremacy; It is about the region, the weather, the social customs and niceties that knew no color, the scent of the flora and fauna, things that said; Home. An awful lot of black folks live happy healthy lives in Mississippi by choice.

When I see a re-enactment and the rebs take the field, I don't see a bunch of rednecks who drive beat to hell pick up trucks and run black people over for fun; I see a celebration of the shared past we all have including the good and the bad. Right or wrong, people on both sides took the field and put their lives on the line and at the end of the story the vast majority of soldiers, both blue and gray did not do this day in and day out for some grand ideas or nefarious goals; they ended up doing it for the men on either side of themselves.

The South was on the wrong side of slavery; not everything.

 

[Tonio]

...the fact that the war was simply about slavery does not automatically make the flag a symbol of racism and does not automatically disqualify the meaning and intention of displaying it today and does not automatically mean there is nothing about 'Southern' heritage or 'way of life' that is good and worth holding onto and celebrating.

Good point. My point was that the flag took on a new meaning for many people because of the murderous segregationists in both the North and the South, and many people still have strong emotions about it. True, that had about as much to do with the Civil War as "King Kong" has to do with primatology.

We've reached the point where a black female is openly and seriously discussed as a viable Presidential candidate, the top job in the nation. Blacks at all other levels of our society, from business owner to doctor to professor and so on is common enough to not merit notice any more.

Very true. Sometimes I feel sad that the nation I love dearly has some shameful things in its history, like the Tulsa riots and the destruction of Rosewood and the murders of civil rights workers. But then I remind myself that, as you said, we've come a hell of a long way in the last 50 years, and that's one reason I'm damned proud to be an American.

An awful lot of Southern heritage is NOT about a whip or cotton or white supremacy; It is about the region, the weather, the social customs and niceties that knew no color, the scent of the flora and fauna, things that said; Home. An awful lot of black folks live happy healthy lives in Mississippi by choice.

Exactly. Let's not forget the South's contribution to American music: bluegrass, country, blues, soul, jazz, and rock 'n' roll. Rock in particular was Southern black culture and and Southern white culture blending to make something new and vibrant.

Right or wrong, people on both sides took the field and put their lives on the line and at the end of the story the vast majority of soldiers, both blue and gray did not do this day in and day out for some grand ideas or nefarious goals; they ended up doing it for the men on either side of themselves. The South was on the wrong side of slavery; not everything.

True. That was my original point about the Southern grunts versus the Southern aristocrats. As Marxist as it sounds, I think the front-line Southern soldiers were used and abused by the aristocrats. I think Southern independence would have made little difference in the lives of the average Southern white person.