Bumper sticker rant

[awg9tech]

Presenting a recognized symbol has clear and understandable consequences. If I put pink triangles and rainbows all over my car, people will assume I am gay. If I wear a Star of David, people will assume I am Jewish. I can claim all I wish that those symbols represent something other than what popular opinion has dictated, but I have no grounds to question why people have made assumptions about me.

You have every right to fly that flag or wear a shirt lauding some claimed heritage, and we have every right to assume you are at best callous and at worst a racist.

Evidently, this is not a case of “Presenting a recognized symbol of clear and understandable consequences.” Looks to me that a few folks have different opinions and/or meaning of said symbol and recognize or identify it according to their own belief/thoughts and even consequences. The meaning then, is only clear to the bearer.

Now, if you were to display any of your aforementioned symbols, at what point does the now “popular opinion” (I see you have changed that from majority) dictate/mandate to YOU what the symbol represents.

Where did I (in my petty little rant) trivialize anything?....I notice that when “we assume at worst you’re a racist” it’s exactly that, an assumption, and at no point, in any of your rant (petty or otherwise) do you indicate or maybe even realize that the comment is prejudice. What did you Sir, mean by “lauding some claimed heritage” You use the words “lauding” and “claimed” quite close together, as if to trivialize something. Or did I just read that wrong?

 

[awg9tech]

You are quoting the Declaration of Independence. While it is a great document, it holds no bearing on the law of this nation.

I must disagree. The Declaration of Independence is a fine, noble document, and with out it, we would not have bearing or law of “this nation”.

 

[Larry Gude]

Just so we're all dealing with the same FACTS...

1. Our Civil War was about one and only one issue: Slavery. No slavery, no war.

2. The South started the war. Arguing they had the right to succeed in peace is moot as that is NOT what they did; they initiated the violence.

3. Towards the end of the war, 100's of thousands of able bodied Southern men had deserted, had quit. They had had enough and so had the vast majority of the Southern people, including ALL of the major military and political figures except President Davis, Wade Hampton and maybe Joe Shelby.

The war, once started, was about who would quit first; the Southern or Northern people.

Those who speak passionately of 'fighting terrorism' today or of rising again or speak of states rights or economic issues as the causes actually dishonor those who did the fighting and the suffering and dying. If the people of the day who obviously had the most to lose had had enough, where in the hell does the idea of doing it again, detached and 140 years later, come from? A flag? A symbol? How's destitution, devastation, starvation and endless misery for symbols? It's OVER. It is settled.

Those are the ideas and passions of the very men, the Yanceys and the Rhetts, the Pryors and the Cobbs, the fire eaters of the day, who virtually guaranteed the death of the cause through their rash acts, initiating violence though taking of federal property in any number of states from Missouri to North Carolina to, finally, South Carolina and Sumter.

The real honor of the South is in it's economic vibrancy and energetic growth and leadership in business and politics of today. The South runs this country today.

Ironically, over time the failed ideas of class and privilege and the plantation mentality migrated North. Just look at our inner cities. What are they if not voluntary plantations of dependant people with their over lords who keep getting re-elected by promising more of the same?

And just as ironically, over time the ideas of individual achievement and opportunity and good ol' Yankee ingenuity, migrated South, touching off the explosion of leadership and success we see today.

The South DID rise again.

 

[tirdun]

Evidently, this is not a case of “Presenting a recognized symbol of clear and understandable consequences.” Looks to me that a few folks have different opinions and/or meaning of said symbol and recognize or identify it according to their own belief/thoughts and even consequences. The meaning then, is only clear to the bearer.

A few folks have differing opinions about all sorts of symbols. The simple fact is that the Confederate Flag is widely regarded as a symbol of racism and hate. You can apply whatever value you want to it, or any other symbol that you wish but intentionally disregarding the accepted meaning does not give you license to complain when people misunderstand.

Now, if you were to display any of your aforementioned symbols, at what point does the now “popular opinion” (I see you have changed that from majority) dictate/mandate to YOU what the symbol represents.

I changed the phrase to "popular opinion" to mock your useage. I shall use "majority" from now on.

I can decide that a symbol of a burning cross represents my pride in some European heritage. According to you, just because other people assume that I'm promoting one understood message rather than my true message is their problem.

Where did I (in my petty little rant) trivialize anything?....I notice that when “we assume at worst you’re a racist” it’s exactly that, an assumption, and at no point, in any of your rant (petty or otherwise) do you indicate or maybe even realize that the comment is prejudice.

Your post was a single sarcastic sentence suggesting that we should hold popular votes to determine what powerful and painful symbols represent. You provided no supporting information, ideas or details, thus I judged it petty in content and a rant in tone.

Prejudice: (noun) The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions based on bias.

Since the flag is understood by the majority to represent racism based on historical events, judgement that someone is potentially a racist by their presentation of said flag cannot be prejudiced. If that person is NOT racist, then they have unrealistically placed the burden on everyone else in expecting them to come to any other conclusion. Flying the flag is a statement that you have embraced some set of ideas represented by that flag. Whether you personally adhere to those ideas or not you are placing yourself in a position to be judged by that symbol and are in no position to be surprised at a negative response.

What did you Sir, mean by “lauding some claimed heritage” You use the words “lauding” and “claimed” quite close together, as if to trivialize something. Or did I just read that wrong?

Lauding, as in praising or raving about the heritage you seem to be claiming for yourself. I could speak well of my claim to an eastern european or southern african or east asian or any other heritage.

The tone was intentional, and is summed up well by Larry's Post. The South's pre-war heritage was one of elitism propped up by an economy of slave labor. The only people benefiting from this were rich white male landowners. Antebellum society was a holdover from Victorian England, benefiting a small minority of people. Nobody revels in the wonders of a "Plain States Heritage" or "Northeast Heretage"... well, except the Kennedys and their ilk.

 

[awg9tech]

A few folks have differing opinions about all sorts of symbols.

Quite right such as, the rainbow (Les Courles), The star (pegan symbol). But alas no, in your case the “majority” has decided for me what those symbols mean and far be it to me to disagree with this decision. Gee, that makes it so much easier, I don’t have to think, CNN has taken a poll and decided for me

You can argue the nature and subjectivity of symbolism all you wish, but symbols represent what the majority believes they represent and displaying that symbol ties you, willingly or not, to that belief.

Majority was your usage. How am I (or anyone) to know the majority opinion? How are you going to get that information? Unless you constantly poll “you” will not know the majority opinion and depending on the time of day (or in your case CNN) you will not know if you rightly offended someone.

Your post was a single sarcastic sentence suggesting that we should hold popular votes to determine what powerful and painful symbols represent. You provided no supporting information, ideas or details, thus I judged it petty in content and a rant in tone.

I see that you too have not supported any information, ideas or details on this “majority” opinion. However, I need none as I do not rely on the majority as to what to think. The lemmings may want to make a run for the water, but I don’t have to follow.

I can decide that a symbol of a burning cross represents my pride in some European heritage. According to you, just because other people assume that I'm promoting one understood message rather than my true message is their problem.”.

If people assume some “message” without further thought and only that one external attribute ,I believe that is called: Prejudice: (noun) The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions based on bias.

Tell me, what other external attributes has the “majority” judged and found fault with? I for one judge by “content of character”, not by what CNN tells me.

“Lauding, as in praising or raving about the heritage you seem to be claiming for yourself. I could speak well of my claim to an eastern european or southern african or east asian or any other heritage.

And I could speek well of mine, but in none of my post have I done so, seemingly or otherwise. But if you chose to, I would not belittle yours by using “lauding” and “claiming” as if yours was not a legitimate heritage.

 

[tirdun]

I am highly amused by your new sig, and I'll state it again. The Declaration of Independence is not a document of law in this country. It was a statement of high treason against the crown and at best hints at the new government:
We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES;

Your argument claimed that the first paragraph of the Declaration somehow gave justification to the seccession. While anyone may take inspiration from the D-o-I and its intent, its is not a legal document in this country now, nor was it in 1861. There is nothing in the Constitution that grants States the right to remove themselves from the Union, and as Andrew Jackson argued, expressly granting executive privledges to the Federal Government argues that the States do not have the legal right to seceed under the only legal document in question, the Constitution. Their only recorse was to abandon the Constitution and fight for independence, which they did. And they lost. Your argument is invalid and if your hope was to ridicule me by posting that quote in your sig, go right ahead.

Your insistance that symbols can have many meanings is fine for an argument in a philosophy class, but attempting to reduce what the Confederate flag represents by dismissing it as "popular opinion" is ridiculous. The South fought the Civil War to uphold economic, political and social institutions supported by slavery and that flag has been historically identified as its banner. It has further been adopted by racial hate groups and white supremecist groups. Flying it to represent anything else, regardless of intent, leads everyone viewing it to the reasonable judgment that the person flying it has adopted those ideals.

I for one judge by “content of character”, not by what CNN tells me.

No one goes through life withholding all judgement. People gather information and make judgements based on the information presented, updating those judgements as they go. People change their opinion when the content of a person's character is revealed.

Prejudice is a bias without justification. If I assume all latinos are illegal workers, then I have made a prejudiced assumption. Ditto if I assume all women are bad drivers or all elderly people are senile. The symbolism of the flag, however, has a clear justification and someone flying it gives me every reason to make a judgement, regardless of big bad CNN and its opinion polls.

And I could speek well of mine, but in none of my post have I done so, seemingly or otherwise.

I'm not exactly sure how I have to spell this out. The reason I used "claimed" several posts ago was that you are defending the position that there is some wonderful Southern Heritage to claim, if not by you than by others. I never said you were Southern, only that you are defending it. I argue that the heritage is based on some romantisized version of Antebellum society out of Gone With The Wind.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Symbols are just that. How you take them is your own business. The Swastika has been all but forgotten as a Hindu symbol and the Nazi's are the only thing people remember anymore. Don't get offended by a symbol, save your effort for what the guy holding believes.

 

[vraiblonde]

Don't get offended by a symbol, save your effort for what the guy holding believes.

Uh...the symbols he adorns himself and his porperty with are excellent indicators of what he believes.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Uh...the symbols he adorns himself and his porperty with are excellent indicators of what he believes.

So you see a guy with swastika's, Just assume he's a Nazi and not a Hindu?

 

[Pete]

Saw an old van this morning (camped in the left lane going 10 below the limit BTW) that had 4 rebel flag stickers on it. I then thought to myself "Self.......I don't recall ever seeing a rebel flag sticker on a nice car like a BMW or a Audi or even a Mercury, it's always the junky ones. :thingsthatmakeyougohmmmm:

 

[Bustem' Down]

Saw an old van this morning (camped in the left lane going 10 below the limit BTW) that had 4 rebel flag stickers on it. I then thought to myself "Self.......I don't recall ever seeing a rebel flag sticker on a nice car like a BMW or a Audi or even a Mercury, it's always the junky ones. :thingsthatmakeyougohmmmm:

 

[vraiblonde]

So you see a guy with swastika's, Just assume he's a Nazi and not a Hindu?

Yep. In our American culture, the swastika is a Nazi symbol.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Yep. In our American culture, the swastika is a Nazi symbol.

Poor poor paraniod Vrai.







The real question is......why does anyone really care. All I care about is correcting people who think that the Stars and Bars was the National flag of the Confederacy.

 

[vraiblonde]

Poor poor paraniod Vrai.

Why does that make me paranoid?

 

[vraiblonde]

All I care about is correcting people who think that the Stars and Bars was the National flag of the Confederacy.

So this makes those who display it doubly ignorant?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Why does that make me paranoid?

pssst, you need me?

 

[Bustem' Down]

Why does that make me paranoid?

Just teasin Vrai. You know we all luv ya.

 

[vraiblonde]

pssst, you need me?

Not yet...but stick around...

 

[vraiblonde]

Just teasin Vrai. You know we all luv ya.

I'm not angry at you. I'm just interested in your views of what common symbols mean and don't mean.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Not yet...but stick around...

I will be hanging out over in chit chat