Bush decries border project
- Thread starter ylexot
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Bruzilla
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ylexot said:
Millions do this as a course of life every day in the US. Don't you ever speed? Have you ever failed to stop completely at a stop sign? How about taken a pen home from work? How about fudging the truth on your taxes or in your resume? We allow hundreds of illegal activities to occur each and every day. Can you just imagine what life in the US would be like if all of us were expected to fully comply with every law, order, and regulation that applies to our lives?
Ok, so suppose you are one of those law and order types who never, ever, breaks the rules. How would you feel about a 30-40% increase in the costs of your fresh produce? How about a 20-30% increase in the costs of processed goods? And since we're not willing to support an underclass of workers in the US, we shouldn't be willing to support underclass overseas, so let's require adequate minimum wages for employees who manufacture anything shipped to America. That will only mean a 30-80% increase in costs of all imported goods.
There are many in the US who say that we should be paying all of our workers an adequate minimum wage, but they don't take into account that workers, like thise in Mexico, are only making a fraction of minimum wage. While paying them $4 an hour is well less than most minimum wages, they are making a lot more than they would in Mexico, which is why they are willing to come to the US to work these "low-paying" jobs. So in the end, they get the money they want, we get the goods at the prices we want, and we all make out.
I think you have look at the definition of terrorist a little differently here. Aren't these people terrorising ranchers and others whose property they are crossing? They are cutting fences, threatening homeowners and their families who rat them out to INS. It is more than just the illegals coming in what about the drug trafficers? Doesn't that have an economic effect on the country as well?
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Bruzilla
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Tonio said:
No. Please don't make the mistake of attributing American culture and customs on Middle Eastern terrorists. They just don't translate. These are not people who have been raised on Sesame Street, the corner cop, and having a strong sense of peaceful existence. These are people who have been raised in an environment of violence, hatred, and religious zealotry. They are strictly law of the jungle types, as Regan proved when he waxed Quadafi's ass and caused him to back down. Middle Eastern people have a great deal of respect for people who will harm them as they are well used to being harmed.
The US looked weak when Bush Sr. and Clinton failed to take aggressive responses to terrorist activities. That made us look weak to their part of the World, and made us appear to be afraid of dealing with the terrorists. Think of it this way... if you were going to vandalize someone's home, who would you be more afraid of... the guy who has motion detector lights and a fake burglar alarm system sign, or the guy you know is a gun nut with no prohibition about killing someone on their property and who has an aggressive German Shepherd Dog that he lets loose on people? When going after the defensive guy you only have to worry about defeating the security system. With the gun/dog guy, you go home and hope you never piss him off.
To some degree but it's not that prevalent in American culture. Think of all the charitable organizations we have. Our welfare system. Any of the other programs we have that are designed to level the playing field for our weaker citizens.Tonio said:
What Bruzilla is talking about is how these people run their country. We're not a nation that gets a new President because rebels assasinated the old one and overthrew the government. George Bush isn't having people gunned down who disagree with him.
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dems4me
Guest
vraiblonde said:
"weaker" citizens???
I just see it at as those that have not had the same opportunities in life that you or I have had :shrug:
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
I think a better analogy for the US would be the guy whose neighbor shoots one of his kids, so the guy gets fed up and blows up the neighbor's house with the neighbor inside.Bruzilla said:
But the "gun nut" analogy is exactly what I am suggesting for the US when it comes to our Mexican border. If the terrorists won't be scared of us if we had a fortified border with snipers, would it still scare the illegal immigrants to know that our armed forces would shoot them on sight?
Tonio - We cannot stoop to the level of others. We cannot shoot on sight.
Bruzilla - Two (multiple) wrongs do not make a right. Just because it occurs does not mean it should. The U.S. would not "need" to have illegals if we didn't have a minimum wage. The minimum wage is unconstitutional anyway but that is off the topic. If you think we should not control border entry which you imply, as does the Libertarian Party, then why have borders at all?
dems4me - "weaker" citizens??? - Yes weaker citizens - those with less drive to get ahead or less intelligence. Should a burger flipper at McDonald's earn as much as a nuclear physicist at Sandia Labs? No! If you think they should, that is communism.
Bruzilla - Two (multiple) wrongs do not make a right. Just because it occurs does not mean it should. The U.S. would not "need" to have illegals if we didn't have a minimum wage. The minimum wage is unconstitutional anyway but that is off the topic. If you think we should not control border entry which you imply, as does the Libertarian Party, then why have borders at all?
dems4me - "weaker" citizens???
- Yes weaker citizens - those with less drive to get ahead or less intelligence. Should a burger flipper at McDonald's earn as much as a nuclear physicist at Sandia Labs? No! If you think they should, that is communism.
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dems4me
Guest
2ndAmendment said:Tonio - We cannot stoop to the level of others. We cannot shoot on sight.
Bruzilla - Two (multiple) wrongs do not make a right. Just because it occurs does not mean it should. The U.S. would not "need" to have illegals if we didn't have a minimum wage. The minimum wage is unconstitutional anyway but that is off the topic. If you think we should not control border entry which you imply, as does the Libertarian Party, then why have borders at all?
dems4me - "weaker" citizens???
no of course not... why is it the right winged folks are soo quick to say anything we come near to thinking as communism... it grows old fast. I'm just saying maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has not had the opportunities in life that the physicist has had... as you your self has stated in the driving thread... sometimes you just don't know what people are going through. Maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has to work there because he has to care for an ailing wife at home nearby and a kid with declining health at the hospital nearby or something and doesn't have the luxury of a tedious job - whereas a drive in life is not a part of his life right now - he's opting to care for others instead of his own dreams right now... I certainly don't view him as "weaker", just as one that hasn't had all the breaks in life as some of us have had. In answer to your communism implication - No the salaray should not be equal, but the VIEW of him as a upstanding normal humanbeing and to not be considered a "weak" person because of circumstances should be equal. People are more than their jobs or paychecks - I can not believe you are sooo steriotypical. Presonally, I judge people for their heart - whether they are citizens of US or not, give folks the benefit of doubt and it makes no difference to me if someone works at flipping burgers v. being a physicist... we are both human beings neither of them weak, we put our pants on one leg at a time, etc... both people just different paths in life.
Nothing to do with viewing other human beings as weaker because of where their paths in life has taken them. Sounds to me as if you are trying to judge someone :shrug:
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dems4me said:no of course not... why is it the right winged folks are soo quick to say anything we come near to thinking as communism... it grows old fast. I'm just saying maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has not had the opportunities in life that the physicist has had... as you your self has stated in the driving thread... sometimes you just don't know what people are going through. Maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has to work there because he has to care for an ailing wife at home nearby and a kid with declining health at the hospital nearby or something and doesn't have the luxury of a tedious job - whereas a drive in life is not a part of his life right now - he's opting to care for others instead of his own dreams right now... I certainly don't view him as "weaker", just as one that hasn't had all the breaks in life as some of us have had. In answer to your communism implication - No the salaray should not be equal, but the VIEW of him as a upstanding normal humanbeing and to not be considered a "weak" person because of circumstances should be equal. People are more than their jobs or paychecks - I can not believe you are sooo steriotypical. Presonally, I judge people for their heart - whether they are citizens of US or not, give folks the benefit of doubt and it makes no difference to me if someone works at flipping burgers v. being a physicist... we are both human beings and put our pants on one leg at a time, etc... both people just different paths in life.
getem babydoll
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dems4me
Guest
somdcrab said:
not trying to get anyone
I just get tired of various right wing folks putting words in various Dems mouth throughout history and then answer the questions for the dems and then on top of that scream COMMUNISM meanwhile Dems has never said anything - it was presummed by the right winged person - they ask the question, they answer it... and then... you end up with your opinion as being communist. 
Pete
Repete
Your defeatism is showing.dems4me said:no of course not... why is it the right winged folks are soo quick to say anything we come near to thinking as communism... it grows old fast. I'm just saying maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has not had the opportunities in life that the physicist has had... as you your self has stated in the driving thread... sometimes you just don't know what people are going through. Maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has to work there because he has to care for an ailing wife at home nearby and a kid with declining health at the hospital nearby or something and doesn't have the luxury of a tedious job - whereas a drive in life is not a part of his life right now - he's opting to care for others instead of his own dreams right now... I certainly don't view him as "weaker", just as one that hasn't had all the breaks in life as some of us have had. In answer to your communism implication - No the salaray should not be equal, but the VIEW of him as a upstanding normal humanbeing and to not be considered a "weak" person because of circumstances should be equal. People are more than their jobs or paychecks - I can not believe you are sooo steriotypical. Presonally, I judge people for their heart - whether they are citizens of US or not, give folks the benefit of doubt and it makes no difference to me if someone works at flipping burgers v. being a physicist... we are both human beings neither of them weak, we put our pants on one leg at a time, etc... both people just different paths in life.
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
I agree with you in principle. Still, in the year after 9/11 it often felt like we could be unprincipled and alive, or principled and dead. I don't think that has ever been the case, but I remember that feeling lasting for a long time. If it were indeed true, would you be prepared to "stoop to the level of others" just to survive?2ndAmendment said:
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dems4me
Guest
Pete said:
I just get tired of folks that judge other folks by where they live, what they wear, how much money they make, etc... to me, the only think I judge folks by are their heart, manners, consideration for others, etc...that's just the way this Dem was raised. Has nothing to do with communism.I run into lots of folks that judge people by the outside and superficial crap, been there - done that. When I lieved in the city that was the first thing out of a anyone's mouth -- where do you work? what do you do there? ($$$???$$???) all of this before asking your name... I was put off by that... and thought it was very rude. So when stating a burger flipper as being a weak person... that's just not right.
Agee
Well-Known Member
Done2ndAmendment said:
One comment: The portion of your petetion dealing with mandating English, could be a hard sell.
Watched a interesting show on PBS a couple of weeks back, "Do You speak American" summaries of the show from the website.
http://www.pbs.org/speak/
Pete
Repete
How many times do you have to get kicked in the head before you figure out that many of the downtrodden did it to themselves and they don't give a rats ass about you, it is all about them and THAT is why they have sucky jobs, no money, poor work ethics, and crissis after crissis?dems4me said:
I run into lots of folks that judge people by the outside and superficial crap, been there - done that. When I lieved in the city that was the first thing out of a anyone's mouth -- where do you work? what do you do there? ($$$???$$???) all of this before asking your name... I was put off by that... and thought it was very rude. So when stating a burger flipper as being a weak person... that's just not right.
They have a term for people like you, it's called "Prey"
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dems4me
Guest
Pete said:
I pray all the time
I just don't understand and litterally cannot comprehend why or how someone can possibly think like that :shrug:
I just can't
Because a lot of what you express IS communistic.dems4me said:
If Colin Powell can rise from being poor black child of Jamaican immigrants to Secretary of State, certainly any child in America can become more than a professional burger flipper.
What separates the Colin Powells from the Joe Ragpickers is ambition and drive. If you want it, you can have it if you work hard enough. Talent and brains have nothing to do with it, as Britney Spears has shown us.
So, yes, the burger flippers are weak. If they spent half as much energy trying to better themselves as they do sitting around whining about their crappy life, they could rule the world.