Bush decries border project

[dems4me]

Because a lot of what you express IS communistic.

If Colin Powell can rise from being poor black child of Jamaican immigrants to Secretary of State, certainly any child in America can become more than a professional burger flipper.

What separates the Colin Powells from the Joe Ragpickers is ambition and drive. If you want it, you can have it if you work hard enough. Talent and brains have nothing to do with it, as Britney Spears has shown us.

So, yes, the burger flippers are weak. If they spent half as much energy trying to better themselves as they do sitting around whining about their crappy life, they could rule the world.

Oh dear vria I don't see it that way at all... some people just have better opportunities in life... andnot all Joerags or whatever are complaining about their lives and their chooses in life. There are always exceptions to everyone's predicament or story... what if JoeRag's newly married wife was dying of cancer and he couldn't afford to go to college to better himself because he was paying for her medical expenses, etc... - for alot of these folks it would be easier to just give in and get with welfare... I don't think these folks are weak at all... they are working for a living, making a paycheck, etc... as far as the pay level being the same across the board for everyone -- that I disagree with (that would be communistic).... The Lord said to give to the poor, etc... he didn't say not to because they belonged there and are weak people and just sit around complaining... I have a heart and compassion for those that have hardships in life :shrug: You just never know what predictaments people are in ... :shrug: You are still super sweet in my book though!!!

 

[vraiblonde]

some people just have better opportunities in life...

I disagree - you must MAKE opportunities.

I come from nothing - and I mean NOTHING. I'm talking Salvation Army clothes and Christmas presents courtesy of the welfare people. I don't even have good genes because my peeps are not intellectuals by any stretch of the imagination, nor are any of them particularly ambitious. Mom was a drunk when I was growing up, Dad split when I was a baby. Pregnant right out of high school and got married at 18, pregnant again at 22.

Not looking good so far, is it? But here I am today - happy, healthy, great kids, great marriage, successful business owner. Life is good. This is why it pisses me off to listen to some tard whine about their childhood and how it's not their fault they're a loser.

It's all about choices, not what you're born with. And if someone like me can go on to have a successful life, so can Joe Ragpicker. The difference is that I WANTED it and was willing to make good choices to get it. Joe just wants to sit around and complain about how his life sucks.

 

[dems4me]

I disagree - you must MAKE opportunities.

I come from nothing - and I mean NOTHING. I'm talking Salvation Army clothes and Christmas presents courtesy of the welfare people. I don't even have good genes because my peeps are not intellectuals by any stretch of the imagination, nor are any of them particularly ambitious. Mom was a drunk when I was growing up, Dad split when I was a baby. Pregnant right out of high school and got married at 18, pregnant again at 22.

Not looking good so far, is it? But here I am today - happy, healthy, great kids, great marriage, successful business owner. Life is good. This is why it pisses me off to listen to some tard whine about their childhood and how it's not their fault they're a loser.

It's all about choices, not what you're born with. And if someone like me can go on to have a successful life, so can Joe Ragpicker. The difference is that I WANTED it and was willing to make good choices to get it. Joe just wants to sit around and complain about how his life sucks.

Vria, as you know I admire your accomplisments and think you should mentor kids with similar backgrounds... but not EVERY SINGLE burger flipper is there because of lack of motivation...nor should be called a weaker person than a wallstreet exec.
I'm just saying there's a chance they are there because of personal reasons such as spouse illness, their illness, no place to live, no skills, no money for schooling, etc.. or what have you... this does exist in the United States - and as long as it does... I have to lean on the side of giving them all the benefit of the doubt. Just because there's bad apples doesn't mean the entire bunch is... a great many in the bunch? yes, but there still remains the chance that one or two are not :shrug:

 

[Bruzilla]

Hmmm... I had assumed that "law of the jungle" was part of human nature, and that the strong preyed upon the weak in ALL cultures to some degree. Is that not true?

The law of the jungle is part of all nature, not just human nature. It was the law of the land here in America until it was legislated out and all, or mostly all, people were made equal by law.

I think that the best example of how to deal with terrorists is still how the Soviets dealt with the kidnapping of one of their KGB agents in Lebanon. They did not negotiate, they did not capitulate. They sent in a team of agents to find out who was responsible for the kidnapping. These agents then found out who was responsible, and that he had a brother. They then kidnapped the brother, tortured and murdered him, chopped him into pieces and stuffed the pieces into trash bags, which were left in front of the kidnapper's house with a notice that what had happened to his brother would happen to him if the Soviet was not released. The kidnapped KGB agent was immediately released and that was the last time anyone dared to kidnap a Soviet.

The response to kidnapping of Americans was for us to provide safety briefings to Embassy personnel and post more guards, which resulted in additional Americans being held captive in lots of Middle Eastern countries... a practice that is continued today. The response that the Soviets offered had the same effect that Reagan's attacks on Libya had.

Swift and blinding violence has a much greater effect on terrorists than barbed wire and armed guards who worry they will be subject to lawsuits if they shoot some illegal in the course of doing their jobs.

 

[vraiblonde]

Swift and blinding violence has a much greater effect on terrorists than barbed wire and armed guards who worry they will be subject to lawsuits if they shoot some illegal in the course of doing their jobs.

Two good examples: Entebbe and the Munich Olympics retaliation. I'm a real big fan of the way the Israelis handle terrorists.

 

[vraiblonde]

I'm just saying there's a chance they are there because of personal reasons such as spouse illness, their illness, no place to live, no skills, no money for schooling, etc.. or what have you...

Dems, you are a perfect example of someone who doesn't get it and never will.

I have a friend who was paralyzed from the waist down during a carjacking. He owns his own business and isn't on the dole, either.

People refuse to achieve because they're lazy and stupid. There is no other reason. Period.

 

[Pete]

Vria, as you know I admire your accomplisments and think you should mentor kids with similar backgrounds... but not EVERY SINGLE burger flipper is there because of lack of motivation...nor should be called a weaker person than a wallstreet exec.
I'm just saying there's a chance they are there because of personal reasons such as spouse illness, their illness, no place to live, no skills, no money for schooling, etc.. or what have you... this does exist in the United States - and as long as it does... I have to lean on the side of giving them all the benefit of the doubt. Just because there's bad apples doesn't mean the entire bunch is... a great many in the bunch? yes, but there still remains the chance that one or two are not :shrug:

Excuse maker. You identify with these people because you are one. Why don't you have a house? You came on here blaming, the real estate market, the government, the Republicans, the MAN, freaking everyone but the 1 single solitary person who was in charge of your destiny YOU. YOU had no foresight to begin saving when you were 20, 25, 30 or 35, you still no doubt live right up to the last dime, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not your fault, it is societies fault, capitalisms fault. You are happy being a victim, and basically homeless because after alllllllll the advise you got on here when you asked it was too hard :wimper: "I will never be able to save enough for the downpayment so why bother now :boohoo:" "I will wait for a man to marry me and "provide" a house for me." You should know better than to try and sell that cartload of pity here.

Now there are people who have mental defects and need assistance. Those cases are far and few compared to those who claim it. There is something viable for everyone if they assert themselves, do a little planning and have a scosh of discipline.

 

[Tonio]

Swift and blinding violence has a much greater effect on terrorists than barbed wire and armed guards who worry they will be subject to lawsuits if they shoot some illegal in the course of doing their jobs.

I don't think it's either-or. I believe we should have BOTH vengeance and fortified borders. And not overpaid, overweight INS guards, either, but the hardest of the hard-bitten military troops who sneer at lawsuits.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I agree with you in principle. Still, in the year after 9/11 it often felt like we could be unprincipled and alive, or principled and dead. I don't think that has ever been the case, but I remember that feeling lasting for a long time. If it were indeed true, would you be prepared to "stoop to the level of others" just to survive?

Kill or be killed? The other guy is dead meat.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... why is it the right winged folks are soo quick to say anything we come near to thinking as communism... it grows old fast. I'm just saying maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has not had the opportunities in life that the physicist has had... as you your self has stated in the driving thread... sometimes you just don't know what people are going through. Maybe burger flipper at McDonalds has to work there because he has to care for an ailing wife at home nearby and a kid with declining health at the hospital nearby or something and doesn't have the luxury of a tedious job - whereas a drive in life is not a part of his life right now - he's opting to care for others instead of his own dreams right now... I certainly don't view him as "weaker", just as one that hasn't had all the breaks in life as some of us have had. In answer to your communism implication - No the salaray should not be equal, but the VIEW of him as a upstanding normal humanbeing and to not be considered a "weak" person because of circumstances should be equal. People are more than their jobs or paychecks - I can not believe you are sooo steriotypical. Presonally, I judge people for their heart - whether they are citizens of US or not, give folks the benefit of doubt and it makes no difference to me if someone works at flipping burgers v. being a physicist... we are both human beings neither of them weak, we put our pants on one leg at a time, etc... both people just different paths in life. Nothing to do with viewing other human beings as weaker because of where their paths in life has taken them. Sounds to me as if you are trying to judge someone :shrug:

Dems, typical liberal apples and oranges comparison. Did you read what I posted before you took offense, or did you just see the word "communism" and go off. That is what it seems like.

... If you think they should, that is communism.

You said they should not be paid the same, so not communism.

Did I say anything about the guy at McD's not having opportunity? Can that person go to public school? Yes. Can the physicist go to public school. Yes. Quit with the apples and oranges. Yes people can have different circumstances. But there are far more people that have nearly exactly the same opportunities and choose to use them differently. One kid studies his butt off and the other chooses to slide by. The one that chooses to slide by is a weaker citizen. That person has a weaker work ethic, weaker personality, weaker job skills, the list goes on. Got it?

I am really tired of the liberal boohoo it was his environment BS. Most people have very similar circumstances in the United States and each choose to do with the opportunity what they will. Far too many squander the education that is free and don't bother to learn and then lament that life isn't fair. Guess what. Life is not fair! Get over it.

 

[dems4me]

Excuse maker. You identify with these people because you are one. Why don't you have a house? You came on here blaming, the real estate market, the government, the Republicans, the MAN, freaking everyone but the 1 single solitary person who was in charge of your destiny YOU. YOU had no foresight to begin saving when you were 20, 25, 30 or 35, you still no doubt live right up to the last dime, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not your fault, it is societies fault, capitalisms fault. You are happy being a victim, and basically homeless because after alllllllll the advise you got on here when you asked it was too hard :wimper: "I will never be able to save enough for the downpayment so why bother now :boohoo:" "I will wait for a man to marry me and "provide" a house for me." You should know better than to try and sell that cartload of pity here.

Now there are people who have mental defects and need assistance. Those cases are far and few compared to those who claim it. There is something viable for everyone if they assert themselves, do a little planning and have a scosh of discipline.

Pete - I take full responsibility and have stated such several times. I had my chance and didn't spend the money wisely. I am not a victim nor am I basically homeless. Don't go judging, I have done alot with my life, most folks wouldn't consider it such, but coming from very, very humble beginnings and personal things, I am proud of my accomplishments... and no not exactly all of the materialistic. Some things are an inside job Pete - things you will never understand and have never had to deal with. BTW, this thread had nothing to do with me... I was sticking up for the folks that have not had as many opportunities in life is all... I never stated I was one of them. Everyone has things in life they biatch about, mine are my roommate and the quick lack of affordable housing in the area. I have learned from it and realize they were both mistakes. People make mistakes and learn from them. Have a blessed day Pete !

 

[dems4me]

Dems, typical liberal apples and oranges comparison. Did you read what I posted before you took offense, or did you just see the word "communism" and go off. That is what it seems like.
You said they should not be paid the same, so not communism.

Did I say anything about the guy at McD's not having opportunity? Can that person go to public school? Yes. Can the physicist go to public school. Yes. Quit with the apples and oranges. Yes people can have different circumstances. But there are far more people that have nearly exactly the same opportunities and choose to use them differently. One kid studies his butt off and the other chooses to slide by. The one that chooses to slide by is a weaker citizen. That person has a weaker work ethic, weaker personality, weaker job skills, the list goes on. Got it?

I am really tired of the liberal boohoo it was his environment BS. Most people have very similar circumstances in the United States and each choose to do with the opportunity what they will. Far too many squander the education that is free and don't bother to learn and then lament that life isn't fair. Guess what. Life is not fair! Get over it.

Boy, all I mentioned is some folks don't have the same opportunities as others and as human beings should not be called weak, I've gotten attacked personally, misunderstood - whatever... this is why I'm a democrat and this is why I don't post in these political forums anymore... they result in personal attacks no matter how off topic and then attacks on the liberal point of view. All I said was I don't see people that work in less menial jobs that pay less than mine means you are weak.. someone has to do it. Look at all the artists in the world -- they are doing what they enjoy doing - it's their perogative - if someone likes to flip burger - by all means do it - someonehas to. I don't feel because someone flips burgers for a living should be looked down upon at all. It may appear as not much goal setting in this persons life or drive... but who knows where they are coming from... maybe their mother was a prostitute and father a drug dealer in jail... to this person to graduate and hold a job should merit credit, not a label. To him, this person feels estemed for his accomplisments. Everyone's different, but it all boils down to, they are human beings too, they have feelings just the same as you and I and we all bleed when we are cut.

If anything I find these folks more fun to hang out with and more of a joy to be around than folks walking around with degrees stuffed up their arses. They too are caring normal human beings and have hearts of gold. I've dealt with both and was raised by a blue collar family that worked 24/7 owning their own business. My personal preference is --I prefer the more down to earth blue collar person to have a beer with and would never think of them as being weak or any less of a human being than I am. Asking them what they do for a living, how much they make, what material possessions have they acquired in life is just not on my list of criteria.

We all will be judged in the end and its none of my business what they do for a living and I dont' give a rats azz for others material possessions... and the old adage rings true -- you can't take that to heavan with you. All you can take is your heart. I mean really, I really don't think people should be judged primarily on their job title - if that makes me a bad person than so be it.
Good day.

 

[somdcrab]

simple solution: a living wage, tell Bush and his fat cat buddies thats how to avoid illegal immigration

 

[SamSpade]

All I said was I don't see people that work in less menial jobs less than mine as weaker people... someone has to do it. If anything I find these folks more fun to hang out with and more of a joy to be around than folks walking around with degrees stuffed up their arses. They too are caring normal human beings and have hearts of gold. I've dealt with both, and I prefer the more down to earth blue collar person to have a beer with.
Good day.

I could give a crap whether or not people look down on them as being 'weak'. Been there too. When I was an out-of-work engineer, for five years I did everything from digging ditches to slopping sewage. And I began to see 6 bucks an hour as my future. And I changed. And, being on the losing side of an excess of more than 150 pounds extra weight, I know what it's like to be looked down upon by others for something they knew nothing about - but I got help.

Like I said, I could give a crap about what others think. Who can control what other people think? I *can* control what *I* think. And that's all that matters.

The original part of the discussion was about relative pay (and minimum wage) and let's not forget that the thread is about ILLEGALS (and their influence on minimum pay). I'm not crazy about the concept of minimum wage, but it's here to stay. The rest of the working population works fairly well with paying what the market will bear - pay too little, no one will work for you. Pay too much, you'll go broke.

But it IS COMMUNISM to pay according to what people *feel* about the relative worth of a job. In Communist, and former Communist countries, party workers got a king's ransom, highly educated professionals got paid factory worker's wages - and you couldn't "shop around" for work, because everyone worked for the state - you all work for the same guy. You may *FEEL* you're just as good a person as a neurosurgeon, but no one wants to PAY you a neurosurgeon's wages to fix their shoes - unless you live under Communism.

So you may get tired of hearing right-wing types bringing it up, but only because you keep raising the straw man of what people are worth versus what salaries they should have. They don't compare.

 

[dems4me]

I could give a crap whether or not people look down on them as being 'weak'. Been there too. When I was an out-of-work engineer, for five years I did everything from digging ditches to slopping sewage. And I began to see 6 bucks an hour as my future. And I changed. And, being on the losing side of an excess of more than 150 pounds extra weight, I know what it's like to be looked down upon by others for something they knew nothing about - but I got help.

Like I said, I could give a crap about what others think. Who can control what other people think? I *can* control what *I* think. And that's all that matters.

The original part of the discussion was about relative pay (and minimum wage) and let's not forget that the thread is about ILLEGALS (and their influence on minimum pay). I'm not crazy about the concept of minimum wage, but it's here to stay. The rest of the working population works fairly well with paying what the market will bear - pay too little, no one will work for you. Pay too much, you'll go broke.

But it IS COMMUNISM to pay according to what people *feel* about the relative worth of a job. In Communist, and former Communist countries, party workers got a king's ransom, highly educated professionals got paid factory worker's wages - and you couldn't "shop around" for work, because everyone worked for the state - you all work for the same guy. You may *FEEL* you're just as good a person as a neurosurgeon, but no one wants to PAY you a neurosurgeon's wages to fix their shoes - unless you live under Communism.

So you may get tired of hearing right-wing types bringing it up, but only because you keep raising the straw man of what people are worth versus what salaries they should have. They don't compare.

Thanks for your kind and tactful response.

Just to set the record straight though -- I said NOTHING about paying people the same across the board. I still feel you should pay folks accordingly. But to me - I was not raised to look at one's material possessions and snub them if they have less than me. I wasn't raised to judge people at all in this department. I think God has a will and a plan for everyone's life and its not up to me to judge where they are in their life. We are all human beings deep down - I just wish we could all get along better though.

 

[somdcrab]

all of you failed history, if it was'nt for the labor movement/unions this country would of went to hellthe way (bush/cheney) want it now, some fat cat owner ( back then the mines or plantations) sitting pretty why you and your family work for nothing live in their shacks, and can only buy/work for goods from their stores, when GUTSY americans stood together and united that is when things for workers got better, no wonder the GOP wants to bust unions

 

[SamSpade]

I said NOTHING about paying people the same across the board. I still feel you should pay folks accordingly. But to me - I was not raised to look at one's material possessions and snub them if they have less than me. I wasn't raised to judge people at all in this department.

You DID actually *read* what I wrote, right? You know, the part where I *didn't* say any of that?

I also don't believe in valuing a man's worth by his paycheck or his possessions. But I'm not going to pay the guy who cuts down my tree the same price as the guy who cuts *ME OPEN*. It has nothing to do with his value as a person; only the value of what he does, as work. You wouldn't DREAM of expecting to pay the same price at the store for a filet mignon as you would for a soda.

 

[Tonio]

let's not forget that the thread is about ILLEGALS (and their influence on minimum pay)

I'm not schooled on national economics, but I suspect that illegals harm the US economy in many more ways than just their influence on minimum pay.

 

[2ndAmendment]

simple solution: a living wage, tell Bush and his fat cat buddies thats how to avoid illegal immigration

When the minimum wage is $1,000,000 per hour we will all be on welfare. Will that make you and the rest of the bleeding heart liberals happy?

 

[SamSpade]

when GUTSY americans stood together and united that is when things for workers got better, no wonder the GOP wants to bust unions

Because unions no longer serve the purpose they once did; hence, the myriad accounts of employees refusing to join them. At my workplace, it's a fact of life that the union's sole purpose is to protect the jobs of people WHO SHOULD BE FIRED for reckless and dreadful job performance. The officers form a Who's Who of employees with bad performance reviews and a history of insubordinate behavior and laziness.

Every profession I've ever been in - including when I worked as a carpenter - unions guaranteed a wage I could *ALWAYS* beat on my own simply by working harder. I simply couldn't believe how often I'd see the union guys sitting on their *azzes* waiting for the bossman to tell them to get back to work.

BTW - it may interest you to know that consistently over the last couple decades, special interests and large campaign donors have been attached almost exclusively to ONE PARTY - the Democrats. Most Republican donations come in small, under $200 increments. Of the top 25 527 donors in the last election, 24 went to Democrats. The "fat cats" are Democrats - it's those red-staters with 200 bucks each that support the Republicans.