Catholicism and Abortion.

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Shall Set Us All Free.

I will look it up for you but I can not right this minute.

I never said that Yahweh or God asked for human sacrifice. It was the other religions that threw the children into the fire. And God told the Israelites to not do it.

Here is a Link for quick search of any Bible text from any Bible version.

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Let no one sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire.
Deuteronomy 18:10 KJV

I found that text on a quick search but there are more where I do believe the Isaelites did sacrifice their children like the heathen did.

The point here is that people sacrifice babies today like a sin offering as was done long ago. They kill the baby as a sin sacrifice for the adultery and such.

Abortion is kind of new but killing babies is not.

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[2ndAmendment]

I will look it up for you but I can not right this minute.

I never said that Yahweh or God asked for human sacrifice. It was the other religions that threw the children into the fire. And God told the Israelites to not do it.

Here is a Link for quick search of any Bible text from any Bible version.

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Did you "steal" that link from my sig line?

You capitalized the word god which means, to a Christian, God, Y'howah, YHWH. If you are speaking of this:

2 Kings 17:29-31

29But every nation still made gods of its own and put them in the houses of the high places which the people of Samaria had made, every nation in their cities in which they lived.

30The men of Babylon made Succoth-benoth, the men of Cuth made Nergal, the men of Hamath made Ashima,

31and the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak; and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech the gods of Sepharvaim.

The gods you posted of are nothing more than idols made by the hands of men.

You are very unclear in your posts and more often than not, very incorrect.

 

[Midnightrider]

The gods you posted of are nothing more than idols made by the hands of men.

very interesting, and how, if i may ask, are you so sure that yours isn't?

I know that this is the age old question, but i am just wondering how you "Know" ?

 

[2ndAmendment]

very interesting, and how, if i may ask, are you so sure that yours isn't?

I know that this is the age old question, but i am just wondering how you "Know" ?

I have a personal relationship with God. He accepted me as one of His children through Jesus and gave me His Comforter, the Holy Spirit, Who live in me. He loved me before I was born. I have only loved Him since I received His gift of salvation. I know Him and He knows me. I am not "nuts". I have experienced Him, and He has done things in my life that are beyond my understanding.

Of course, if I remember correctly, we went down this road before.

 

[Midnightrider]

I have a personal relationship with God. He accepted me as one of His children through Jesus and gave me His Comforter, the Holy Spirit, Who live in me. He loved me before I was born. I have only loved Him since I received His gift of salvation. I know Him and He knows me. I am not "nuts". I have experienced Him, and He has done things in my life that are beyond my understanding.

Of course, if I remember correctly, we went down this road before.

we have gone down a similar road before, so i won't antagonize you. But you have to be able to see that any one from any religion could use the same argument to say that their god is the real one, and yours is the one without validity- or as you said- nothing more than an idol made at the hands of man....

 

[2ndAmendment]

we have gone down a similar road before, so i won't antagonize you. But you have to be able to see that any one from any religion could use the same argument to say that their god is the real one, and yours is the one without validity- or as you said- nothing more than an idol made at the hands of man....

Only the Roman Catholic Church makes idols that I know of. No other Christian church does that. Sad that so many people see the RCC as their prime example. So I do not bow down before any idols.

There is one very big difference between other gods and religions and Y'howah. The religions of other gods depend on man being good enough to reach Nirvana or whatever. Y'howah is reaching out to man saying I know you can't be good, so I have provided the way. All you have to do is agree with Me and accept My grace.

Y'howah, God of the Jews and Christians, revealed His plan through the Old Testament and Jesus fulfilled that plan in the New Testament. That plan was to show through the law that man could not be good enough and God providing the only sacrifice to bridge the gap between Him and us and the promise of life everlasting.

And when I speak of experiences with God, I am speaking of things not imagined.

 

[forever jewel]

...I think what we need to do is to make the baby valuable again. Quit punishing parents for having babies. God said to be fruitful and to multiply. We need to teach the parents to love their child as being a blessing from God and that children are not a burden....

I'm split on the issue. I do believe that all children are gifts from God. I agree that abortions should not be used as a method of disposal. Yet, I would feel horrible forcing a woman to bare a child from rape, a constant reminder of a horrific event. But then I'm torn again, because although you may not want that child, it is possible to go full-term and then give the child up for adoption. That offers a child of rape the gift of life, a child that did not ask to be put in that situation...

 

[forever jewel]

we have gone down a similar road before, so i won't antagonize you. But you have to be able to see that any one from any religion could use the same argument to say that their god is the real one, and yours is the one without validity- or as you said- nothing more than an idol made at the hands of man....

Your philosophical way of thinking exhausts me

 

[Midnightrider]

Only the Roman Catholic Church makes idols that I know of. No other Christian church does that. Sad that so many people see the RCC as their prime example. So I do not bow down before any idols.

There is one very big difference between other gods and religions and Y'howah. The religions of other gods depend on man being good enough to reach Nirvana or whatever. Y'howah is reaching out to man saying I know you can't be good, so I have provided the way. All you have to do is agree with Me and accept My grace.

Y'howah, God of the Jews and Christians, revealed His plan through the Old Testament and Jesus fulfilled that plan in the New Testament. That plan was to show through the law that man could not be good enough and God providing the only sacrifice to bridge the gap between Him and us and the promise of life everlasting.

And when I speak of experiences with God, I am speaking of things not imagined.

I was thinking of idols more abstractly, as in any constructed by man, such as an idea, or the theology of a religion.
You know how you can't really define a word using that word? well it seems to me like you can't really prove a religion is "correct" using its own doctrine. I doubt you'll find any religion that has in its "bible" this isn't the true path to god, you want to go check out......
But thats where faith comes in, and i understand that.
And the funny thing about experiences with god, rarley will you find that people believe it when it happens to someone else, but i am sure it is easy to recognize when it happens to you.



Foreverjewel you better watch it or i'll right back into your corner

 

[Toxick]

But you have to be able to see that any one from any religion could use the same argument to say that their god is the real one,

I know this isnt' any of my business... but I believe that under the rules of proper debating ettiquette: the two people that were having a religious discussion were both Christians ... therefore, for the purposes of that conversation the existance of God is a given, and other gods are false by definition.

 

[Toxick]

Only the Roman Catholic Church makes idols that I know of.

Come again? What idols do the Catholic Church set up for worship?

 

[Midnightrider]

I know this isnt' any of my business... but I believe that under the rules of proper debating ettiquette: the two people that were having a religious discussion were both Christians ... therefore, for the purposes of that conversation the existance of God is a given, and other gods are false by definition.

If you go back to post #42, 2A says
"The gods you posted of are nothing more than idols made by the hands of men."

That is where the question of how you know your god is the right one came in. so in the debate ettiquette, my questioning would be like the rules for cross examination, if the other party opened the door, i am allowed to explore the topic. Besides we all know the answer to the abortion question- ABORTIONS for ALL

 

[Toxick]

That is where the question of how you know your god is the right one came in.

I know; I read it.

Let's say that it was two Hindus that were discussing the pros and cons of reincarnation, and the bright hope of Nirvana.

So, I pop in and say, "Hey! A lot of people think that the concept of reincarnaton is tripe. Let's go for burgers!"


Ok, I have the right to do that... but for the purposes of their discussion, don't you think that reincarnation and Nirvana should be counted as givens, since both participants subscribed to the belief?

 

[Midnightrider]

but if one of the hindus says "and all other ideas of heaven are wrong" doesn't that open up the topic for debate?

 

[2ndAmendment]

Come again? What idols do the Catholic Church set up for worship?

Ever go to a Roman Catholic Church or cathedral? There are statues of saints and Mary and there is a statue of Jesus still hanging on a cross. In front of most of the statues are candles to light and a contribution box and a prayer railing and even benches or chairs. Catholics are told to pray to the saints and to Mary and when they do, they often knee before those statues. Catholics genuflect to the statue of Jesus on the cross when they come into church, enter a pew, or cross in front of the statue. Catholics also pray the rosary with repetitious prayers.

What does the Bible say about these things?

Leviticus 26:1-3

1'You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God.

2'You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD.

3'If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out,

Matthew 6:5-7

5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

And Father does not refer to "father" refering to a priest.

What did Jesus say of Mary, His mother.

Matthew 12:46-50

46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.

47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"

49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!

50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Not everyone that goes to any Christian church is a Christian. I believe that many Catholics are Christian, so lets not go there. Every Christian is just a sinner that is redeemed by God grace; nothing more.

What all Christians have in common, Jesus, Son of God, as Savior and Lord, is most important. All differences between Christians of all denominations are distractions inflicted on us by satan.

 

[citysherry]

There are several places in the Bible where God commissions statues and images for religious usage:
Exodus 25:10-22
1 Kings 6:23; 7:13-51
Numbers 21:6-9
Judges 17:1-6

An image is not an idol. There is a difference. An image is simply a spiritual ‘visual aid’ that is used by the faithful to increase their spirit of prayerfulness and devotion to God. An idol, on the other hand, is an image that is worshipped by the unfaithful in place of the one true God.

The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, “There are not one hundred people in this world who hate Catholicism, but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be.”

 

[Makavide]

Ever go to a Roman Catholic Church or cathedral? There are statues of saints and Mary and there is a statue of Jesus still hanging on a cross. In front of most of the statues are candles to light and a contribution box and a prayer railing and even benches or chairs. Catholics are told to pray to the saints and to Mary and when they do, they often knee before those statues. Catholics genuflect to the statue of Jesus on the cross when they come into church, enter a pew, or cross in front of the statue. Catholics also pray the rosary with repetitious prayers.

The crucifix is there to remind us that Jesus died for our sins. Yes he did rise from the dead - in fulfillment of the prophets, basically to say, see I told you I am the Son of God. But it was the act of giving up his life, so that we may live again, that is the important part for us.

As for Mary, the saints and all the martyrs we do not pray to them in place of God, we ask them to pray for us. It is the same concept of the "prayer circle", the more people praying for you the better the odds.

 

[Toxick]

but if one of the hindus says "and all other ideas of heaven are wrong" doesn't that open up the topic for debate?

Well, I guess technically if the topic is in public, it's open for debate by definition.

But if a discussion is between two people who have agreed upon certain criteria (i.e. There is only One God, and everyone else is wrong), it's bad form to challenge the established criteria, unless you're opening up a completely different discussion.




I dunno - i'm getting tired, and think I'm coming down with something.

 

[DD214]

Ever go to a Roman Catholic Church or cathedral? There are statues of saints and Mary and there is a statue of Jesus still hanging on a cross. In front of most of the statues are candles to light and a contribution box and a prayer railing and even benches or chairs. Catholics are told to pray to the saints and to Mary and when they do, they often knee before those statues. Catholics genuflect to the statue of Jesus on the cross when they come into church, enter a pew, or cross in front of the statue. Catholics also pray the rosary with repetitious prayers.

What does the Bible say about these things?

And Father does not refer to "father" refering to a priest.

What did Jesus say of Mary, His mother.Not everyone that goes to any Christian church is a Christian. I believe that many Catholics are Christian, so lets not go there. Every Christian is just a sinner that is redeemed by God grace; nothing more.

What all Christians have in common, Jesus, Son of God, as Savior and Lord, is most important. All differences between Christians of all denominations are distractions inflicted on us by satan.

Here is the opening quote from the Vatican's fine art collection:

"Very rightly the fine arts, by their very nature, are oriented toward the infinite beauty of God which they attempt in some way to portray by the work of human hands; they achieve their purpose of redounding to God's praise and glory in proportion as they are directed the more exclusively to the single aim of turning men's minds devoutly toward God. SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM , 122"

Think of it this way, I'm sure your church uses music to aid in worship. Music is a form of art that you use to help focus your mind on Christ, but you don't worship the music. While Catholics use music in the same way, we also use art (i.e. statues, paintings). The Catholic Church would definitely be in the wrong if they taught people to actually worship the object itself, but they do not. That would be idolatry. Rather, we try to use all of our senses to worship God, just as your church uses your sense of hearing. Beautiful music can help one concentrate more fully on an act of worship, as can beautiful art. You can't say using one of our senses is OK, while the other is not. There is no logic in that. Another way to look at it is that I'm sure you have photographs of your family at home and/or at work. If you look at a picture of your wife on your desk at work and say "I miss you, honey", are you actually speaking to the photo that is sitting on your desk? No, you are using that object that bears the likeness of your wife as a visual reminder of her. That is the exact same thing as what Catholics do with art.

As far as calling a priest father, you would have to argue with Paul on that one:

1 Cor 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Catholics believe in apostolic succession, which would mean that the authority given to Paul has also been given to our modern day priests. So if Paul became a "father" through the gospel, so has my parish priest become a "father" through the gospel. Of course that does not contradict the use of Father, as in reference to God.

Now, praying in repetition. The Bible warns of vain or meaningless repetition. I would hardly call the Rosary or any other Catholic prayer vain or meaningless, any more than I would call the hymns that you sing on Sunday vain or meaningless. You repeat the same words over and over, week after week out of your hymnals, all directed at the glory of God. I'm also sure that you repeat the Lord's Prayer, but I would hardly call that vain or meaningless, even though it is repetitious. Or if you are charismatic, you most likely raise your hands and repeat "praise God, praise God", or something to that effect, but you don't consider it meaningless. Same thing. Don't condemn Catholics for something you most likely do as well.

Now for Mary, the Mother of God. I don't know why so many Protestants seem to have such a great distaste for Mary. Anyway, there are many examples of Mary's special place in relation to her son, Jesus. For example, Luke 1:41-43:

41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Hmm, I would say that mother of my Lord is another way of saying mother of God. Oh, and this verse is the primary prayer in the Rosary, so I'm not sure what your problem is with a Catholic choosing to repeat a Bible verse as a means to worship God.

I can go on and on, but I'll stop here. Oh, and this post really isn't directed at you, 2A, as much as it is at other readers. You seem rather set in your ways and there is nothing I or anyone else could point out that would open your mind. If you find something you can't respond to you will just end the debate and say Christians shouldn't be arguing.

What all Christians have in common, Jesus, Son of God, as Savior and Lord, is most important. All differences between Christians of all denominations are distractions inflicted on us by satan.

I agree. We had unity until 500 years ago. Thanks Martin Luther!

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Shall Set Us All Free.

The Catholic Church has made a hard open public stance against abortion. The Catholics put out white crosses in front of their churches to symbolize the 171 babies being aborted every hour.

In the past many people have criticized the Catholic Church for not speaking out during World War II against the murder of the Jews. Well now no one can say the Catholics have not spoken out against the massacre of unborn babies through abortion.

This time the Catholic Church is not quiet at all.

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Encore.....................