Catholicism and Abortion.

[DD214]

2. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

This is just plain false. First of all, most of the Deuterocanonical books were written in Hebrew, with the exception of Wisdom of Solomon, 2 Maccabees, and the additional parts of Esther, which were written in Greek. Second, not all of the Old Testament as accepted by Protestants was originally written in Hebrew. For example, parts of Esther and Daniel were written in Aramaic. God did not limit himself to Hebrew, so why should we? For more on this subject, see the International Bible Commentary (Zondervan Publishing House, 1986), which, by the way, is an Evangelical Protestant publication.

 

[DD214]

3. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

So what? To the best of my knowledge, with the exception of Revelations, no other book in the New Testament claims to be inspired either. Does that mean that we won’t accept them as such? In fact very few books in either Testament claim inspiration for themselves. And what of the books that are not included in the Bible that do claim to be divinely inspired? Should we take them for their word and add them to the Bible? The Gospel of Thomas claims to be a collection of sayings recorded directly from the mouth of Jesus, but we don’t accept that. Which begs the question, why do we accept that the books in the Bible are divinely inspired? Who decided that the Gospel of Thomas was not inspired, but that Hebrews was? The Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, determined which books were to be considered divinely inspired in the 4th century. This list, including the Deuterocanonical books, was reaffirmed by the Synods of Hippo (A.D. 393), Carthage (A.D. 397, 419), and the Councils of II Nicaea (787), Florence (1442), Trent (1546), and Vatican I (1869).

 

[DD214]

4. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

And they never acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah either. Anyway, only the Palestinian Jews did not accept the Deuterocanonical books as inspired scripture, and they only came to this decision at the council of Jamnia, long after Judaism and Christianity had parted ways. The Hellenistic Jews did accept these books as inspired (as do the modern Ethiopian Jews). That aside, we know for sure that the “Bible” of Jesus and the Apostles was the Septuagint, which did contain the Deuterocanonical books. Many scholars believe that the Palestinian Jews rejected the Septuagint at Jamnia because they considered it the “Christian Old Testament”. Also, there are numerous references to Old Testament scriptures and stories in the New Testament that can only be found in the Deuterocanonical books. For instance, Hebrews 11:35 states that “Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.” Try to find a reference to that in the Protestant Old Testament. You won’t, because that verse is a direct reference to the events that took place in 2 Maccabees 7:1-41.

 

[DD214]

5. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

This statement is outright deception. The fact of the matter is that the early Christians did not officially recognize any book in either Testament as inspired until the Synod of Hippo in 393. Until this time there was much debate about which books should be considered sacred, and which ones should not. The Church finally addressed the issue in 393, where BOTH Testaments were formally canonized, and yes, this included the Deuterocanonical books. Many of these books were already considered inspired, but it was not made official until Hippo. But we do know that many, if not most of the early Church Fathers considered the Deuterocanonical books as inspired text. As Protestant scholar J.N.D. Kelley notes:

“[The Old Testament] always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called Apocrypha or deutero-canonical books. . . . In the first two centuries . . . the Church seems to have accepted all, or most of, these additional books as inspired and to have treated them without question as Scripture. Quotations from Wisdom, for example, occur in 1 Clement and Barnabas . . . Polycarp cites Tobit, and the Didache [cites] Ecclesiasticus. Irenaeus refers to Wisdom, the History of Susannah, Bel and the Dragon, and Baruch. The use made of the Apocrypha by Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian and Clement of Alexandria is too frequent for detailed references to be necessary.” J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrine, (New York: Harper & Row, 1960).

 

[DD214]

Look, I never meant for this thread to go this far. As I stated in the beginning, and as you stated towards the end, neither of us are going to change our minds. My reason for addressing you in the first place was because you made a very inflammatory statement about my faith. It is no different than if I posted a statement saying “2ndAmendment’s church worships idols”. I don’t think you would look upon that statement very kindly, as I didn’t appreciate the comment about my church worshiping idols. Neither statement is based on fact. As for this forum, I read much but post little. I’ve read many posts made by you that I vehemently disagree with, but I understand that there are some fundamental differences between our beliefs. I respect that. The only time I care to jump in is when the statement made is grossly offensive and not based on fact. Sometimes after I read such posts I truly wish that I hadn’t, because I don’t particularly enjoy this.

I do want you to know that I understand where you are coming from. After all I was Protestant for 90% of my life. My parents are still Protestants (but they are coming around). You say that you are not anti-Catholic, and I will accept that, but I will admit that I was; Very much so in fact.

I have little doubt that if you live your life according to the way you portray yourself on this forum that I will see you in heaven one day. I do not doubt your faith in the least. I only wish for the unity that once existed.

That being said, I’m signing off of this thread. I leave the end for you to write whatever you wish, and I will not counter.

God bless you!

 

[2ndAmendment]

God bless you!

If there is a purgatory, if God really inspired the apocryphal books, all will be revealed in time.

May God bless

 

[kingpl2]

If there is a purgatory, if God really inspired the apocryphal books, all will be revealed in time.

May God bless

It already has been revealed and was held for centuries until someone did not agree like it and decided they would change it. What am I talking about? The BIBLE did not fall out or the sky. Jesus established a church, the church in the Holy Spirit defined which books were sacred from among all those books circulating. This is called the cannon. Anyone who believes the Bible believes tradition. Nowhere in the Bible does it list which books make up the Bible it was the church Jesus established that defined which books it is made of. Jesus did not give a book he gave a deposit of faith which was handed down orally until written then the official lis of writings was collected. Most americans have a problem with authority which is whay they have a problem with the church. The pope during WWII did save hundreds of Jews from the holocaust it is an historical fact.

 

[2ndAmendment]

It already has been revealed and was held for centuries until someone did not agree like it and decided they would change it. What am I talking about? The BIBLE did not fall out or the sky. Jesus established a church, the church in the Holy Spirit defined which books were sacred from among all those books circulating. This is called the cannon. ...

You are right, what are you talking about? It is extremely hard to follow. As to the cannon, do you mean canon? The canon is the 66 books of the Bible without the Apocryphal books.

The Jewish canon is called the TaNaKh, an acronym for the three parts of the their Bible:

* Torah (tor-AH) -- The Law, also called the Pentateuch (Greek for "five books")
* Nebiim ( neh-veh-EEM) -- The Prophets
* Ketubim (keh-tu-VEEM) -- The Writings
Specifically:
The Torah

* Genesis
* Exodus
* Leviticus
* Numbers
* Deuteronomy

The Prophets
The Former Prophets

* Joshua
* Judges
* Samuel
* Kings

The Latter Prophets

* Isaiah
* Jeremiah
* Ezekial
* The Twelve (Minor Prophets)
o Hosea
o Joel
o Amos
o Obadiah
o Jonah
o Micah
o Nahum
o Habakkuk
o Zephaniah
o Haggai
o Zecariah
o Malachi

The Writings

* Psalms
* Proverbs
* Job
* Song of Solomon
* Ruth
* Lamentations
* Ecclesiastes
* Esther
* Daniel
* Ezra-Nehemiah
* Chronicles

Some of these are split into two books in the Bible, Samuel is 1st & 2nd Samuel, Kings is 1st & 2nd Kings, and Chronicles is 1st and 2nd Chronicles thus giving the 39 books of the Old Testament.

The canonical books of the New Testament are:
The Gospels:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
The Acts of the Apostles:
Acts

The Pauline Epistles:
Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon

General Epistles:
Hebrews, James, I Peter, II Peter, I John, II John, III John, Jude

Prophecy:
Revelation

These comprise the 27 books of the New Testament. Thus, the canonical Bible has 66 books and does not contain the apocryphal books.

 

[Lamini]

I do agree with the above statement. I might add that some woman do carry the offspring of rape and God bless them for their strength.

some years ago, i came home from elementary school and saw my mother sobbing. i couldnt understand why. she just wanted to hold me. then she kept repeating "i am so sorry"... she was out of it, she went mental. hours later she told me of how she failed at aborting me after a marine beat her senseless and raped her. then told me of how happy she was that she failed, and i told her how glad i was for her having the strength to carry me and raising me alone, though she had the option of trying again with the hanger

 

[2ndAmendment]

some years ago, i came home from elementary school and saw my mother sobbing. i couldnt understand why. she just wanted to hold me. then she kept repeating "i am so sorry"... she was out of it, she went mental. hours later she told me of how she failed at aborting me after a marine beat her senseless and raped her. then told me of how happy she was that she failed, and i told her how glad i was for her having the strength to carry me and raising me alone, though she had the option of trying again with the hanger

<img src="http://www.grifent.com/forums/images/smiles/GodLovesYou.gif" />

He loves your mom, too.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Shall Set Us All Free.

some years ago, i came home from elementary school and saw my mother sobbing. i couldnt understand why. she just wanted to hold me. then she kept repeating "i am so sorry"... she was out of it, she went mental. hours later she told me of how she failed at aborting me after a marine beat her senseless and raped her. then told me of how happy she was that she failed, and i told her how glad i was for her having the strength to carry me and raising me alone, though she had the option of trying again with the hanger

Children are always a gift from God. I really think that getting pregnant from rape is a way for God to bring right out of wrong. We have misguided people in our society that shame others instead of embrassing the blessings that our Creator gives. Disgrace belongs to those that do it and not to those of us that receive it.

----------------------------------

 

[SAHRAB]

Children are always a gift from God. I really think that getting pregnant from rape is a way for God to bring right out of wrong. We have misguided people in our society that shame others instead of embrassing the blessings that our Creator gives. Disgrace belongs to those that do it and not to those of us that receive it.

----------------------------------

Shaddup and answer 2A's question, how will you Hold office when Maryland Constitution States :

Article III, Section 12, No Collector, Receiver, or Holder of public money shall be eligible as Senator or Delegate, or to any office of profit, or trust, under this State, until he shall have accounted for, and paid into the Treasury all sums on the books thereof, charged to, and due by him.

Since you admit to being a DEADBEAT who lives off the back of Maryland Tax Payers you are not able to hold Office

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Will Set Us All Free.

Shaddup and answer 2A's question, how will you Hold office when Maryland Constitution States :



Since you admit to being a DEADBEAT who lives off the back of Maryland Tax Payers you are not able to hold Office

Here is the link to my answer to 2A's claim at post #47.

I put the response to his claim in my thread on the Election section of this forum.

I really think that is the wrong approach (but do it anyway if ye chose) but it is not the Christian way. The correct way is to comfront me and my position honestly and honorably and not even try to find some trick backroom way to beat me or any opponent. Even if 2A can find some slick way to stop me his position would still be wrong and my position would still be correct and his actions would be seen as low and cheap and un-Christ like.

------------------------------------

 

[2ndAmendment]

Even if 2A can find some slick way to stop me his position would still be wrong and my position would still be correct and his actions would be seen as low and cheap and un-Christ like.

Oh? Me wanting you to obey the law is not Christ like? You breaking the law is Christ like? You not supporting your own child is Christ like? You not paying the state what is due is Christ like?

I think not.

Matthew 19:13-15

13Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.

14But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

15After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.

Matthew 17:24-27

24When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?"

25He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?"

26When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.

27"However, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."

Matthew 22:17-21

17"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?"

18But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?

19"Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius.

20And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"

21They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Will Set Us All Free.

Oh? Me wanting you to obey the law is not Christ like?

Those particular child support laws are wrong and oppressive and they hurt parents and hurt families and they even hurt the children so wanting me or others to obey unjust laws makes you not like Christ.

You breaking the law is Christ like?

Susan B. Anthony said it best with this maxim, "Resistance to tyranny is obediance to God." I agree and I believe and I do that statement but only with laws that are wrong.

You not supporting your own child is Christ like?

All the children are fine. The poster's accusation is baseless. Christ says to give to the needy and not to give to the greedy.

You not paying the state what is due is Christ like?

I think not.

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's is not the same as giving to God that which is God's and it is not the same as giving to one's own child what the State demands. The poster is presenting a myth that paying the State is service to God and to Christ, but Yesu (Jesus) wore a crown of thorns in defiance of the laws, and He was the example to follow.

-------------------------------

 

[2ndAmendment]

JPC, Sr., Your theology is so messed up it is obvious you have no idea what the Bible really says. You are a very, very confused person, and that is putting it kindly.

Seriously, I and others have mentioned this, have you ever sought mental help? You really should.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Shall Set Us All Free.

JPC, Sr., Your theology is so messed up it is obvious you have no idea what the Bible really says. You are a very, very confused person, and that is putting it kindly.

Seriously, I and others have mentioned this, have you ever sought mental help? You really should.

I have had mental evaluations before and I love the self help psychology field.

I was mentally evaluated when the Court ordered to see if I was competant to stand trial. It was a great adventure and I learned much about mental health and about the system too. The Courts are much like 2A in that anyone that openly disagrees with their highness is thought to be mental. But I did pass all the test and was found to be competant.

Plus I had to under go a criminal and mental health evaluation before working at the Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant (CCNPP, and all employees must past the test) and I passed it easily. All one has to do is be completely honest. I had a high level security clearance and as a Maintenance Inspector I had access to all areas except the super secret.

So 2A have you been evaluated for your mental level?

-------------------------------

 

[2ndAmendment]

So 2A have you been evaluated for your mental level?

Mental level? What is that? IQ? Competence? Your English skills leave much to be desired. My IQ is quite high. My mental competence has never been questioned.

Others disagree with me all the time. No big deal. You, on the other hand, are beyond belief and are too far gone to be taken seriously.

 

[JPC, Sr.]

The Truth Will Set Us All Free.

Mental level? What is that? IQ? Competence? Your English skills leave much to be desired. My IQ is quite high. My mental competence has never been questioned.

Others disagree with me all the time. No big deal. You, on the other hand, are beyond belief and are too far gone to be taken seriously.

I certainly do not think 2A is a mental case and if I gave that impression then that too was wrong.

Mental illness is a real serious problem and I would like to see more done and more consideration given to those with mental illnesses. The reason it is called an illness is because people that suffer from it have pain and are ill as in sickly and it has nothing to do with having differences of opinion. Very intelligent persons can have the illness as shown in that true based movie, "A beautiful mind" and another excellent movie about mental illness called "The snake pit" and "Sybil" too.

I have studied psychology some and spoken to many in the Mental Health field and just because some one believes wierd or peculiar does not make then mentally ill. Many people believe in Angels and Deamons and space ships and Elvis Presley being alive and that is normal society.

------------------------------

 

[mv_princess]

How did you study psychology?

Did you teach yourself that?