Toxick
Splat
buddy999 said:
Doesn't the Catholic church harp on the Trinity even more than other christian religions?
Father/Son/Holy Ghost... 3 yet 1... etc.
The Father is one facet of the triangle, The Son another, and the Ghost another still, but all one.
You're inferring disparity where there is none.
Indeed, it is part and parcel of the Nicene Creed.
(The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use)
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
(The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use)
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
AndyMarquisLIVE
New Member
Pope Benedict XVI is a crackpot old fool.ItalianScallion said:
Tinkerbell
Baby blues
Why? Because you don't agree with his opinions?AndyMarquisLIVE said:
Lie.JPC sr said:Even if the Pope had said such a foolish thing then still nobody goes to any place of torture as is falsely called "hell".
Truth.JPC sr said:
Half-truth so it is a lie. The true parts are "Christ already paid the price in full" and "Unconditional love;" the lie is "Everybody gets saved in the end, in fact everybody has salvation now."JPC sr said:Everybody gets saved in the end, in fact everybody has salvation now because Christ already paid the price in full.
..................................... Unconditional love.
Just like satan, JPC,Sr. speaks in half-truths and lies.
Then Catholics are not being taught the Bible and what Jesus said about Himself.buddy999 said:
in8alpha, You messed up the quoets so badly, I didn't quote you. You are espousing Catholic doctrine. That is different from the Bible scripture. Catholics are taught that doctrine and tradition are to be regarded as equal to Bible scripture. To that I would give you the words of Jesus.
I believe that if doctrine or tradition conflicts with the Bible, then it is the doctrine or tradition that is wrong. That goes for the doctrine and tradition of all churches, Catholic, Pentecostal, or any thing else.
Yes, I botched the quotes but at least I spelled "quote" correctly. *wink*
And I can fully understand where you are trying to come from with your words and quotes. I can only hope that you bother to fully research what is merely man-made doctrine or tradition and what has Biblical foundation.
Or perhaps you have researched it and choose to ignore it in favor of some other passage that you agree with... who's to know? All I know is that there are no contradictions in the Bible so you can't choose a passage out of context to ignore another passage.
And I can fully understand where you are trying to come from with your words and quotes. I can only hope that you bother to fully research what is merely man-made doctrine or tradition and what has Biblical foundation.
Or perhaps you have researched it and choose to ignore it in favor of some other passage that you agree with... who's to know? All I know is that there are no contradictions in the Bible so you can't choose a passage out of context to ignore another passage.
You misunderstand the Nicene Creed.in8alpha said:
he First Council of Nicaea, held in Nicaea in Bithynia (in present-day Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325. The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. The overwhelmeing decision was that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. One God manifested in three ways to us.
Didn't misunderstand at all, the Nicene Creed most definitely lays out the idea of The Holy Trinity. I'll quote a reference instead of rewording here but...
"To the majority of modern Christians, the Nicene Creed is regarded as the quintessential expression of Christian faith. In this traditional belief, all "proper" Christians affirm the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed is referred to by Roman Catholics and Orthodox as the "symbol of faith," and its recitation is often part of Christian worship services. In the Catholic Mass, it is also referred to as the "Profession of Faith."
However, some evangelical Christians who take a view of "by scripture alone" reject the Creed (and especially its recitation), not necessarily for its content but simply because it is not found in the Bible.
"To the majority of modern Christians, the Nicene Creed is regarded as the quintessential expression of Christian faith. In this traditional belief, all "proper" Christians affirm the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed is referred to by Roman Catholics and Orthodox as the "symbol of faith," and its recitation is often part of Christian worship services. In the Catholic Mass, it is also referred to as the "Profession of Faith."
However, some evangelical Christians who take a view of "by scripture alone" reject the Creed (and especially its recitation), not necessarily for its content but simply because it is not found in the Bible.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
2ndAmendment said:
2A - Catholics are not taught that doctrine and tradition are equal to scripture. Catholics believe that scripture and oral Tradition go hand in hand, which is not what you stated. PLEASE do not, I repeat DO NOT, attempt to say what Catholics believe but leave that to us. you are generally wrong and i've had to correct you once before.
i have some questions for you if you don't mind...
how was the gospel proclaimed during the time between the death of Jesus and when the New Testament was put together?
who decided which books would be included in the New Testament?
how do you know your interpretation of scripture is correct?
Spelling was not my best subject in school.in8alpha said:
I try to never take any Biblical quote out of context and research extensively. The church is instructed to follow the traditions as taught by apostles and by Paul, but it is also warned to not follow the traditions of men. The warning against following the traditions of men came predominantly from Jesus; only one instance from Paul in Colossians 2:8. The instructions to follow the traditions as taught by the apostles came from Paul.
I know that there are no contradictions in the Bible unless scripture is taken out of context. I know that there are lots of contradictions between church doctrine and Biblical scripture. Examples: You do not have to speak in tongues to be saved or have the Holy Spirit. You don't have to kneel to pray. You don't have to be immersed in water to be baptized although that was the early custom for water baptism and was what Jesus submitted to. You should not pray to anyone except God (I know that causes disagreement here.) as was instructed by Jesus. I find nowhere where the Bible says pray to Mary or the saints. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not obsolete and not given any more; they are for all Christians even today as opposed to the belief by many churches that the gifts are not given anymore.
Those are just a bunch of examples where human doctrine is held above Biblical scripture in my opinion. People argue about things we do not understand and do not allow God to be God. Most conflict in the Church (body of believers - not Catholic) is caused by humans imposing human limits on God.
You speak of God as three distinct beings but that is not what the council at Nicaea diciided. The council decided that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one.in8alpha said:
I don't recite any creed or prayer by rote. Jesus instructed us not to do that.in8alpha said:
How is "hand in "hand" or "side by side" different from "equal?"Radiant1 said:
You have? I don't remember. What am I generally wrong about? Is the Bible scripture that I post wrong? Take that up with God. I didn't write the Bible. I was a member of a prayer group that met under the auspices of the Catholic church. What I repeat is what I learned from the priests and brothers that were in that group. If they were wrong, then I was wrongly informed by authorities in the Catholic church.Radiant1 said:
It was proclaimed first by the apostles and then by those they placed in charge of the churches they established like Timothy in Corinth. You do know that the first church was not in Rome don't you?Radiant1 said:
All the original 27 manuscripts that are in the New Testament were written by about 100AD, about the accepted time of death of John, the disciple Jesus loved. The 14 books of the Apocrypha were written prior to the manuscripts of the New Testament and were completed by about 200 BC. The first compilation we know as the Bible was in 390 AD. Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test; though the Apocrypha was a cut and paste effort upon pressure by the church, and not by Jerome’s choice (he did not believe the apocryphal books were canonical.). The Apocrypha was removed in 397 AD.Radiant1 said:
I depend on the Holy Spirit that lives in me. I read multiple versions of the Bible if there is a question. I go back to the Hebrew/Aramaic or the Greek (No, I do not read or speak them. There are references that give the original text and all the possible translations of a word or phrase which can lead to greater understanding.) if I need further clarification.Radiant1 said:
2ndAmendment said:
Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you are one of the original Tribe of Jews then by definition you are a Gentile like the rest of us...
Fortunately for us Gentiles we have since been included into the Grace. Otherwise we'd be a bunch of lost sheep claiming salvation thatwe are not entitled to.
Are the statues in the Catholic churches I have visited urban myths, too?in8alpha said:
I've seen a lot of Catholics on their knees in front of statues.
I have been told that Catholics do not pray to Mary or the saints but only ask them to pray for them. OK. I can accept that. After all, for those that believe, we are instantly in heaven at our earthly death. It would be no different than me asking you to pray for me. But I am not sure that all Catholics understand that because I have been told by Catholics that they pray to Mary or to some other saint.
I do not want to be confrontational. I know that Catholics are taught that the Catholic church is the THE CHURCH. I disagree. I believe that the Church is the body of all believers in Christ. Do we have differences? Yes. Should we? Ideally not, but humans will always get it wrong.