Did the Pope just say unless your Catholic....

[2ndAmendment]

Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you are one of the original Tribe of Jews then by definition you are a Gentile like the rest of us...

Fortunately for us Gentiles we have since been included into the Grace. Otherwise we'd be a bunch of lost sheep claiming salvation thatwe are not entitled to.

Yes, I am a Gentile. My point is "do not use meaningless repetition." How many times do you say the "Hail Mary" and the "Our Father" when you say the Rosary? A bit repetitious?

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
Fortunately for us Gentiles we have since been included into the Grace. Otherwise we'd be a bunch of lost sheep claiming salvation thatwe are not entitled to.

The chosen rejected the cornerstone. We are grafted in to the vine. Yes, I do know.

 

[in8alpha]

Are the statues in the Catholic churches I have visited urban myths, too? I've seen a lot of Catholics on their knees in front of statues.

No more a myth than the Crucifix hanging on many Protestant walls and in their Churches. No more a myth than the little metal crosses dangling from many a necklace. No more a myth than the little fish symbols adorning many a sporty vehicle on the streets. Can't be picky about what you define as an idol.

Romans 8:
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Ideally not, but humans will always get it wrong

Wise indeed. Admitting that you could be wrong is a powerful thing.

 

[in8alpha]

How many times do you say the "Hail Mary" and the "Our Father" when you say the Rosary? A bit repetitious?

Not being Catholic I must admit that the Rosary is not one of my rituals but ritual chanting is widely used as a meditation tool and to focus the mind.

 

[2ndAmendment]

No more a myth than the Crucifix hanging on many Protestant walls and in their Churches. No more a myth than the little metal crosses dangling from many a necklace. No more a myth than the little fish symbols adorning many a sporty vehicle on the streets. Can't be picky about what you define as an idol.

Difference is whether you bow down to the object in a sign of worship. I do wear a cross around my neck. Proud to proclaim that Jesus is my Savior. I don't take it off and pray before it.

Wise indeed. Admitting that you could be wrong is a powerful thing.

Goes in all directions, and context is everything.

Do we have differences? Yes. Should we? Ideally not, but humans will always get it wrong.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Not being Catholic I must admit that the Rosary is not one of my rituals but ritual chanting is widely used as a meditation tool and to focus the mind.

But you would agree that "praying the Roasary" as I have heard it called is repetitious? And often the repetition is repeated, as in praying the Rosary 10 times.


Prayer and meditation are not the same thing as I understand them.

 

[in8alpha]

Difference is whether you bow down to the object in a sign of worship. I do wear a cross around my neck. Proud to proclaim that Jesus is my Savior. I don't take it off and pray before it.

Now let's not be disingenuous, or at least not intentionally so... Every Protestant (and Catholic for that matter) church sports some sort of Crucifix or Cross and every member of the congregation bows down or bows their heads before it at some point in the service. Of course, we know that when we do this that we are praying to God Himself and not the Cross, right? Same for our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Goes in all directions, and context is everything.

Didn't intend it otherwise.

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

Thanks for clearing that up Reverend.

What's the real translation of Revelation 20:15?

Inquiring minds want to know.

For that Revelation 20:15 it is a matter of interpretation and not translation.

We need to let the Bible interpret its own symbols and this is it:

The word water is a symbol for people, multitudes, etc, and a lake is a small body of water, so it stands for a smaller group of people. Link text HERE.

And the Bible word of fire represents things like God's spirit (that bush did not burn LINK) and that God's ministers were a flaming fire, link text HERE.

So the lake of fire is not a Hell of torture but a place as discribed in Judges that teach the people right from wrong.

The Bible is really very sensible and the final message is unconditional love.

No conditions.

 

[in8alpha]

But you would agree that "praying the Roasary" as I have heard it called is repetitious? And often the repetition is repeated, as in praying the Rosary 10 times. Prayer and meditation are not the same thing as I understand them.

"The Rosary", says the Roman Breviary, "is a certain form of prayer wherein we say fifteen decades or tens of Hail Marys with an Our Father between each ten, while at each of these fifteen decades we recall successively in pious meditation one of the mysteries of our Redemption."

While not the same thing, one would be remiss to dismiss the power of using them in conjunction.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Now let's not be disingenuous, or at least not intentionally so... Every Protestant (and Catholic for that matter) church sports some sort of Crucifix or Cross

Not true. I have been in several churches that have no cross or other symbolism like that.

and every member of the congregation bows down or bows their heads before it at some point in the service.

Also not true. Some churches raise the heads and hands to God and do not bow their heads.

Of course, we know that when we do this that we are praying to God Himself and not the Cross, right? Same for our Catholic brothers and sisters.

I would submit that experience in conversation with Catholics that I have had would indicate otherwise. Many Catholics I have spoken with say they are praying to Mary or praying to some saint. I am certain that there are many Catholics that understand that they are only asking for the other person, live or in heaven, to pray for them, but the confusion is not just with those that are not Catholics.

 

[2ndAmendment]

For that Revelation 20:15 it is a matter of interpretation and not translation.

We need to let the Bible interpret its own symbols and this is it:

The word water is a symbol for people, multitudes, etc, and a lake is a small body of water, so it stands for a smaller group of people. Link text HERE.

And the Bible word of fire represents things like God's spirit (that bush did not burn LINK) and that God's ministers were a flaming fire, link text HERE.

So the lake of fire is not a Hell of torture but a place as discribed in Judges that teach the people right from wrong.

The Bible is really very sensible and the final message is unconditional love.

No conditions.

Revelation 20:15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is not ambiguous.

Take your lies and lunacy elsewhere.

 

[2ndAmendment]

"The Rosary", says the Roman Breviary, "is a certain form of prayer wherein we say fifteen decades or tens of Hail Marys with an Our Father between each ten, while at each of these fifteen decades we recall successively in pious meditation one of the mysteries of our Redemption."

While not the same thing, one would be remiss to dismiss the power of using them in conjunction.

Repetitious? You are avoiding the question.

 

[Toxick]

The word water is a symbol for people, multitudes, etc, and a lake is a small body of water, so it stands for a smaller group of people. Link text HERE.


And the Bible word of fire represents things like God's spirit (that bush did not burn LINK) and that God's ministers were a flaming fire, link text HERE.

Very interesting.

That may not be the most contrived thing I've ever seen in my entire life.




But it's in the top 3.

So the lake of fire is not a Hell of torture but a place as discribed in Judges that teach the people right from wrong.

Like purgatory?

The Bible is really very sensible and the final message is unconditional love.

No conditions.

Well this does fit neatly with your rights without responsibilities philosophy.

 

[in8alpha]

Not true. I have been in several churches that have no cross or other symbolism like that.Also not true. Some churches raise the heads and hands to God and do not bow their heads.

Now you're quibbling... picking nits, as it were. I'm sure there are "some churches" that meet in a field and hold hands but that wasn't my point.

I would submit that experience in conversation with Catholics that I have had would indicate otherwise. Many Catholics I have spoken with say they are praying to Mary or praying to some saint. I am certain that there are many Catholics that understand that they are only asking for the other person, live or in heaven, to pray for them, but the confusion is not just with those that are not Catholics.

Again we are picking nits. "Many" would hardly represent all though it is possible that it does, and just as likely that it represents hardly any. I attend Catholic services quite often and have dedicated much research to learning about their peculiarities and I've never met a Catholic (even the "Cafeteria" kind) who believes that they are praying to Mary or a Saint but it is likely that the word "prayer" is being used loosely. Semantics is not a friendly creature sometimes.

I do know that the Saints are often talked to and asked to intercede on people's behalf. This should not be confused with praying to God. Two very different things with very different intentions. It was a common practice in Biblical times as well. Given time I will pull those passages for you should you require them.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Jesus was the one who told us what the judgment and the kingdom of heaven is like.

Matthew 13:1-50
Jesus Teaches in Parables
1That day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea.

2And large crowds gathered to Him, so He got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd was standing on the beach.

3And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;

4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.

5"Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.

6"But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7"Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.

8"And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

9"He who has ears, let him hear."
An Explanation
10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The Sower Explained
18"Hear then the parable of the sower.

19"When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.

20"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

22"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

23"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Tares among Wheat
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.

26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.

27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'

28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'

29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.

30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
The Mustard Seed
31He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field;

32and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that THE BIRDS OF THE AIR come and NEST IN ITS BRANCHES."
The Leaven
33He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened."

34All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

35This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
"I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."
The Tares Explained
36Then He left the crowds and went into the house And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

37And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,

38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.
Hidden Treasure
44"The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
A Costly Pearl
45"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,

46and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.
A Dragnet
47"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;

48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.

49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

JPC is one who does not see and does not hear. He is a deceiver.

I believe Jesus. I advise others to do the same.

 

[Radiant1]

2A - Catholics are not taught that doctrine and tradition are equal to scripture. Catholics believe that scripture and oral Tradition go hand in hand, which is not what you stated.

How is "hand in "hand" or "side by side" different from "equal?"

You stated "doctrine" and simply "tradition" which, again, is incorrect. There is a fine distinction that makes a huge difference in understanding. Oral Tradition (large T, what was handed down by word of mouth) is different than tradition (small t, what is considered disciplines such as preistly celibacy and head coverings). Doctrine is simply the beliefs that come from scripture and oral Tradition. And while I'm at it, there is a difference between doctrine and discipline, which is also confused by non Catholics.

PLEASE do not, I repeat DO NOT, attempt to say what Catholics believe but leave that to us. you are generally wrong and i've had to correct you once before.

You have? I don't remember. What am I generally wrong about?

Yes, I have, in a previous thread. You are generally wrong about what Catholics believe. There are important subtleties and details that you omit, most likely out of ignorance. So, once again, I would kindly ask you not to speak on behalf of the Catholicism, yourself not being a Catholic.

Is the Bible scripture that I post wrong? Take that up with God. I didn't write the Bible. I was a member of a prayer group that met under the auspices of the Catholic church. What I repeat is what I learned from the priests and brothers that were in that group. If they were wrong, then I was wrongly informed by authorities in the Catholic church.

Do you mind giving the name of the prayer group? I doubt you were wrongly informed and instead suspect you misunderstood the finer details, but if not I have need to pursue the issue with my brothers.

i have some questions for you if you don't mind...

how was the gospel proclaimed during the time between the death of Jesus and when the New Testament was put together?

It was proclaimed first by the apostles and then by those they placed in charge of the churches they established like Timothy in Corinth.

Agreed. It was proclaimed first by the apostles by word of mouth, or in other words, oral Tradition. There would be no written scripture without it; hence, scripture and oral Tradition go hand in hand.

And for those the apostles placed in charge of churches, that is called Apostolic succession. Apostolic succession exists to this day in the form of bishops in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, and that includes the bishop of Rome, aka the Pope. If you are not a member of a church with Apostolic succession then you are not a full member of the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded. Mt 16:18,19; Acts 1:20-26; Acts 6:1-6.

You do know that the first church was not in Rome don't you?

Of course I do. You do know that the successor to the apostle Peter, with whom Jesus declared that His Church would be built with the keys of heaven and the binding and loosening, is now found in Rome don't you?

who decided which books would be included in the New Testament?

All the original 27 manuscripts that are in the New Testament were written by about 100AD, about the accepted time of death of John, the disciple Jesus loved. The 14 books of the Apocrypha were written prior to the manuscripts of the New Testament and were completed by about 200 BC. The first compilation we know as the Bible was in 390 AD. Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test; though the Apocrypha was a cut and paste effort upon pressure by the church, and not by Jerome’s choice (he did not believe the apocryphal books were canonical.). The Apocrypha was removed in 397 AD.

In other words, the Apostolic Church guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ Himself is who you have to thank for the New Testament.

Btw, Jerome was the only church father who did not approve of the so called "apocrypha", the rest of the church had always used the Septuagint which had always included what you call "apocrypha".

how do you know your interpretation of scripture is correct?

I depend on the Holy Spirit that lives in me. I read multiple versions of the Bible if there is a question. I go back to the Hebrew/Aramaic or the Greek (No, I do not read or speak them. There are references that give the original text and all the possible translations of a word or phrase which can lead to greater understanding.) if I need further clarification.

But...what about those other Christians who have the same Holy Spirit living in them using the same scriptures but yet do not believe the same things as you? The Holy Spirit cannot possibly be so fickle, a bit of a conundrum don't you think?

 

[2ndAmendment]

Now you're quibbling... picking nits, as it were. I'm sure there are "some churches" that meet in a field and hold hands but that wasn't my point.



Again we are picking nits. "Many" would hardly represent all though it is possible that it does, and just as likely that it represents hardly any. I attend Catholic services quite often and have dedicated much research to learning about their peculiarities and I've never met a Catholic (even the "Cafeteria" kind) who believes that they are praying to Mary or a Saint but it is likely that the word "prayer" is being used loosely. Semantics is not a friendly creature sometimes.

I do know that the Saints are often talked to and asked to intercede on people's behalf. This should not be confused with praying to God. Two very different things with very different intentions. It was a common practice in Biblical times as well. Given time I will pull those passages for you should you require them.

Do you know that Christians, all Christians, are saints?

And I don't think I am nit picking. You use "all" and I am trying to get you to understand that "all" means "all" with no exceptions. I have pointed out that there are exceptions.

I think this discussion has taken on the air of debate for debate sake and I do not do that. If there is other things to discuss, OK, but if we are going to rehash then I choose to leave you in peace.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You stated "doctrine" and simply "tradition" which, again, is incorrect. There is a fine distinction that makes a huge difference in understanding. Oral Tradition (large T, what was handed down by word of mouth) is different than tradition (small t, what is considered disciplines such as preistly celibacy and head coverings). Doctrine is simply the beliefs that come from scripture and oral Tradition. And while I'm at it, there is a difference between doctrine and discipline, which is also confused by non Catholics.

Tradition with a "T" is the Bible.

Yes, I have, in a previous thread. You are generally wrong about what Catholics believe. There are important subtleties and details that you omit, most likely out of ignorance. So, once again, I would kindly ask you not to speak on behalf of the Catholicism, yourself not being a Catholic.

I will try to remember to preface with I have been told, because I do not speak from the hip or just make things up. Please return the favor.

Do you mind giving the name of the prayer group? I doubt you were wrongly informed and instead suspect you misunderstood the finer details, but if not I have need to pursue the issue with my brothers.

Trinity Praise Community - does not exist any more.

Agreed. It was proclaimed first by the apostles by word of mouth, or in other words, oral Tradition. There would be no written scripture without it; hence, scripture and oral Tradition go hand in hand.

As long as oral tradition does not conflict with the Bible. In addition to the oral Tradition there were the letters and writings of Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude. Once the oral Tradition was written in the Gospels and Acts, the the need for oral tradition was obviated in my opinion.

And for those the apostles placed in charge of churches, that is called Apostolic succession. Apostolic succession exists to this day in the form of bishops in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, and that includes the bishop of Rome, aka the Pope. If you are not a member of a church with Apostolic succession then you are not a full member of the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded. Mt 16:18,19; Acts 1:20-26; Acts 6:1-6.

All Christian churches are of apostolic succession. God calls ministers for himself, churches do not.

Of course I do. You do know that the successor to the apostle Peter, with whom Jesus declared that His Church would be built with the keys of heaven and the binding and loosening, is now found in Rome don't you?

We disagree on the Roman Catholic church being THE CHURCH as do the Byzantine Catholics.

In other words, the Apostolic Church guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ Himself is who you have to thank for the New Testament.

Btw, Jerome was the only church father who did not approve of the so called "apocrypha", the rest of the church had always used the Septuagint which had always included what you call "apocrypha".

The Septuagint included only the 39 books of the Old Testament and the Apocrypha. I think history proves you incorrect in your assessment regarding the early churches. Apparently Jerome was not the only one that did not approve of the Apocrypha because Athanasius headed a council in 397 AD to canonize the Bible as Protestants have it today. 39 Old Testament books and 27 New Testament books without the Apocryphal books. And that is the Bible that was used until 1384 AD when Wycliffe produced a Bible from the 390 AD Latin Vulgate. So from 397 to 1384, the common Bible, and there was only one church since the Reformation had not occurred, that was used did not have the 14 books of the Apocrypha.

But I don't really care if you want to read Apocryphal books; I just won't.

But...what about those other Christians who have the same Holy Spirit living in them using the same scriptures but yet do not believe the same things as you? The Holy Spirit cannot possibly be so fickle, a bit of a conundrum don't you think?

Nope. We humans get in the way.

You see everything through a Catholic tint just as I see everything from the point of view which is my heritage. We will never agree on everything, certainly not on the Apocryphal books, or Mary, or the Immaculate Conception of Mary (meaning, according to literature written by Catholics, that Mary was born without sin), and many other Catholic only beliefs.

I and Protestants may be wrong. Then again, you and Catholics may be wrong. I would rather concentrate on the fact that Jesus is Savior and Lord and the only path to salvation for all mankind. I consider myself a Christian, not a Protestant, or Lutheran, or Methodist, or Catholic. I am called by Christ. Even the early church had this problem of division. Paul wrote of it. We will not resolve it; only God will when Y'shua returns (pre or post tribulation? - another point of disagreement - I am a post-trib because of Matthew 24). Until then, I agree to disagree and consider Christians that go to a Catholic church as much my Christian brothers and sisters as the Christians that belong to any congregation I may be a member of.

 

[in8alpha]

I think this discussion has taken on the air of debate for debate sake and I do not do that. If there is other things to discuss, OK, but if we are going to rehash then I choose to leave you in peace.

I agree. No reason to beat dead horses or continue just to see ourselves type. I do hope that, if nothing else, we have given you something to pray and meditate about because where Catholic dogma is concerned you are terribly and sadly wrong about the things I've tried to discuss here with you.

I do appreciate your willingness to enter into the debate with me though. Christian Apologetics is interesting but I find it distressing that we children of God must practice it on each other.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I agree. No reason to beat dead horses or continue just to see ourselves type. I do hope that, if nothing else, we have given you something to pray and meditate about because where Catholic dogma is concerned you are terribly and sadly wrong about the things I've tried to discuss here with you.

If you say so. I can only go from what I have been told by those I consider authorities.

I do appreciate your willingness to enter into the debate with me though. Christian Apologetics is interesting but I find it distressing that we children of God must practice it on each other.

I don't even like the term Apologetics. I have nothing to apologize for for being a Christian. Another term I do not like is Theology, the study of God. We don't understand God's creation. How can a human study the creator?

Anyway. God bless you. May He reveal His Truth to us both and may we be submissive to Him to accept it.