Did the Pope just say unless your Catholic....

[rraley]

First off, I did not read every post, so if my post has already been covered earlier, my deepest apologies.

Sadly, the media has falsely portrayed Pope Benedict's bull in regards to the nature of the modern Church and our fellow Christian and non-Christian brothers.

The media has tried to say that the this bull essentially puts the Church down on record as believing that all other religions are doomed to Hell. This is not the case at all. If anyone would actually read the Pope's statement, we would see that he is simply articulating a view that is centered in the of idea religious pluralism. Benedict declared that because the Church was directly formed by the Apostles of Christ to pass the message of Christ through the generations, She [the proper pronoun for the Church] has the "fullest means of salvation." What this means is that the Roman Catholic Church has the most effective and most accurate pathway towards salvation through Jesus Christ. This belief is most extensively based on this in Matthew 16:18-19...

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I don't see the controversy in this. Every single religion in the world believes that they are the best means by which to secure salvation. You come to find Christ and you come to believe certain things based on His message as it is communicated through religions. Catholics consider our Church to be the best, just as Methodists, Lutherans, Penacostals, etc.

Oh and to an earlier poster...the Church still teaches the existence of purgatory because of its continued implication in Scripture. The Church, however, renounced the teaching that a "state of limbo" existed for young unborn or newly born children that died before they could be baptized. These babies were at first argued to have not been able to enjoy the beatific vision because of the lack of baptism and as a result were still present with original sin, but now after further study and readings of early Christian writers, such a teaching has been halted. This occured around the beginning of this year.

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

Very interesting.

That may not be the most contrived thing I've ever seen in my entire life.

But it's in the top 3.

I thank you for saying that.

It is not necessary for others to believe as I believe.

I just like others to make their own decisions them-self.

Like purgatory?

It does sound like a purgatory and maybe that lake of fire is meant as a type of pergatory.

Personally I do not believe that pergatory or the lake of fire are true accounts of true scripture but I talk about them as though they are because most other people do not study the scriptures like I do and so I try to do as Paul said of when in Rome act like a Roman, so I try to communicate with people on their level.

So, FYI, the Book of Revelations has sufficient evidence to show that it is not a true piece of scripture.

The author of Revelations claims to be John but it is not the Aposle John - it is some other called John the Divine, and that is "diviner" as in a person that talks to spirits or to the "Divine" and not the Apostle.

So the Book of Revelations is basically a fraud but I have to use it when communicating with others that do not know that much.

The plain truth is that everybody gets saved and on Judgement Day they will go to extremes just to save erveryone.

Well this does fit neatly with your rights without responsibilities philosophy.

It does indeed.

Salvation is a free gift with no strings attached. Unconditional.

The real issue in the scriptures over the whole world is in being saved now in the present and not after death.

People need saved from addictions, saved from violence, from unjust gov, saved from debauchery and sin.

If we do not stop it now then we suffer under it all now. Reap what is sown.

The Judgement Day shall be a day of rest - a Sabbath from sin.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I thank you for saying that.

It is not necessary for others to believe as I believe.

Thank God that most people don't believe like you about much of anything.

I just like others to make their own decisions them-self. It does sound like a purgatory and maybe that lake of fire is meant as a type of pergatory.

Personally I do not believe that pergatory or the lake of fire are true accounts of true scripture but I talk about them as though they are because most other people do not study the scriptures like I do and so I try to do as Paul said of when in Rome act like a Roman, so I try to communicate with people on their level.

So, FYI, the Book of Revelations has sufficient evidence to show that it is not a true piece of scripture.

The author of Revelations claims to be John but it is not the Aposle John - it is some other called John the Divine, and that is "diviner" as in a person that talks to spirits or to the "Divine" and not the Apostle.

So the Book of Revelations is basically a fraud but I have to use it when communicating with others that do not know that much.

Right. You are so much more intelligent that all the Biblical scholars that have existed since Revelation was written by Jesus' disciple John. You are a cheat, fraud, and liar.

The plain truth is that everybody gets saved and on Judgement Day they will go to extremes just to save erveryone. It does indeed.

No they do not!. A lie straight from satan and his disciple JPC.

Salvation is a free gift with no strings attached. Unconditional.

Finally a little truth.

The real issue in the scriptures over the whole world is in being saved now in the present and not after death.

Lie. Can't be saved after death. False teaching.

People need saved from addictions, saved from violence, from unjust gov, saved from debauchery and sin.

If we do not stop it now then we suffer under it all now. Reap what is sown.

Just like you reaped what you sowed when you went to jail for not paying child support.

The Judgement Day shall be a day of rest - a Sabbath from sin.

Lie. Judgment Day will bring weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-43

41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear.

Doesn't sound like a day of rest for everyone. Those that did not come to Jesus BEFORE the judgment are in for a bit of trouble.

Wake up JPC. Open your ears and hear.

 

[Radiant1]

I will try to remember to preface with I have been told, because I do not speak from the hip or just make things up. Please return the favor.

Well that's something at least, thank you. No problem returning the favor, I don't take it upon myself to speak for Protestants.

All Christian churches are of apostolic succession. God calls ministers for himself, churches do not.

No, they are not. I worship as a Catholic (Catholic meaning "universal") which was founded by Jesus Christ Son of God in 33 AD. You apparently worship as a non-denomenational 20th c phenomenon founded by 2A a mere man with dubious scriptural interpretations. The scripture passages in Matthew and Acts were given to you for a reason, so that you will see the Church as founded by Jesus and the act of Apostolic succession (the laying on of hands). Do not just look at what the scripture says but also look at what is done. This act of succession has been carried down to this day and bishops can trace their ecclesial lineage back to the beginning and that very same Church that Jesus Christ Son of God founded. You, 2A, cannot say that and to call any church that cannot do so is deceitful.

Historical list for the Bishop of Rome

We disagree on the Roman Catholic church being THE CHURCH as do the Byzantine Catholics.

Wrong again 2A! Where was that preface you promised me? Byzantine Catholics are CATHOLICS, who acknowledge the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as first among equals. Would you like to re-think and then re-phrase?

The Septuagint included only the 39 books of the Old Testament and the Apocrypha. I think history proves you incorrect in your assessment regarding the early churches. Apparently Jerome was not the only one that did not approve of the Apocrypha because Athanasius headed a council in 397 AD to canonize the Bible as Protestants have it today. 39 Old Testament books and 27 New Testament books without the Apocryphal books. And that is the Bible that was used until 1384 AD when Wycliffe produced a Bible from the 390 AD Latin Vulgate. So from 397 to 1384, the common Bible, and there was only one church since the Reformation had not occurred, that was used did not have the 14 books of the Apocrypha.

What Catholics call apocrypha are 7 books not 14. The other 7 are referred to as “deuterocanonicals” which were included in the Septuagint, used by all Greek speaking Jews in the 1st century (that includes Jesus!) and most assuredly is the Word of God. To make it simple, suffice it to say that the bible used from the time the canon was closed at the Council of Rome in 382 (and re-affirmed again in the years 393, 397, 405, 419, 787, 1442, 1546, 1870 and 1965) is the same bible used by Catholics and Orthodox (Apostolic church) today. The bible was indeed changed by reformers. They removed books that did not suit their theology and referred back to Jerome and even the Jewish reactionary Council of Jamnia (which also rejected the entire New Testament btw!) in order to justify the action.

But I don't really care if you want to read Apocryphal books; I just won't.

OK, but without those 7 termed “deuterocanonicals” you're not working with the full scriptures and the New Testament references to the “deuterocanonicals” is lost to you. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your studies regardless of this fact.

Nope. We humans get in the way.

Which is why it is important that one be in unity with the Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ Son of God with whom He gave the authority to bind and loose and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If not, you get over 20,000 some odd protesting denominations, or non-denominations if you will, with willy nilly interpretations and mass confusion.

I would rather concentrate on the fact that Jesus is Savior and Lord and the only path to salvation for all mankind.

Good on you brother, on that we certainly can agree. You stick to what you do best with the basic gospel message. Making erroneous comments about what Catholics believe regarding how that path is laid out is not what you do best.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.

JMJ

 

[Dork]

Well that's something at least, thank you. No problem returning the favor, I don't take it upon myself to speak for Protestants.



No, they are not. I worship as a Catholic (Catholic meaning "universal") which was founded by Jesus Christ Son of God in 33 AD. You apparently worship as a non-denomenational 20th c phenomenon founded by 2A a mere man with dubious scriptural interpretations. The scripture passages in Matthew and Acts were given to you for a reason, so that you will see the Church as founded by Jesus and the act of Apostolic succession (the laying on of hands). Do not just look at what the scripture says but also look at what is done. This act of succession has been carried down to this day and bishops can trace their ecclesial lineage back to the beginning and that very same Church that Jesus Christ Son of God founded. You, 2A, cannot say that and to call any church that cannot do so is deceitful.

Historical list for the Bishop of Rome



Wrong again 2A! Where was that preface you promised me? Byzantine Catholics are CATHOLICS, who acknowledge the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as first among equals. Would you like to re-think and then re-phrase?



What Catholics call apocrypha are 7 books not 14. The other 7 are referred to as “deuterocanonicals” which were included in the Septuagint, used by all Greek speaking Jews in the 1st century (that includes Jesus!) and most assuredly is the Word of God. To make it simple, suffice it to say that the bible used from the time the canon was closed at the Council of Rome in 382 (and re-affirmed again in the years 393, 397, 405, 419, 787, 1442, 1546, 1870 and 1965) is the same bible used by Catholics and Orthodox (Apostolic church) today. The bible was indeed changed by reformers. They removed books that did not suit their theology and referred back to Jerome and even the Jewish reactionary Council of Jamnia (which also rejected the entire New Testament btw!) in order to justify the action.



OK, but without those 7 termed “deuterocanonicals” you're not working with the full scriptures and the New Testament references to the “deuterocanonicals” is lost to you. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your studies regardless of this fact.



Which is why it is important that one be in unity with the Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ Son of God with whom He gave the authority to bind and loose and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If not, you get over 20,000 some odd protesting denominations, or non-denominations if you will, with willy nilly interpretations and mass confusion.



Good on you brother, on that we certainly can agree. You stick to what you do best with the basic gospel message. Making erroneous comments about what Catholics believe regarding how that path is laid out is not what you do best.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.

JMJ

It sounds like you are a very wise person. I am also catholic and know that what the pope said may not sit well with the protestants but it's just part of what we believe. I would hate to see this thread turned into a bashing between christians. Let's try not to let it go that way. Even though the protestants have interpreted the bible differently over the years and there are still new churches popping up all over the place who chose to believe even something new and different, I think we all need to be aware that we are all christians trying to get to the same place. You believe what you will and let us believe what the catholic church teaches us and lets worry about the really screwed up religion of the world, the radical muslims. We all have to agree that their beliefs fall way off the chart.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I attend Catholic services quite often and have dedicated much research to learning about their peculiarities and I've never met a Catholic (even the "Cafeteria" kind) who believes that they are praying to Mary or a Saint but it is likely that the word "prayer" is being used loosely.
I do know that the Saints are often talked to and asked to intercede on people's behalf. This should not be confused with praying to God.

Hello in8alpha. I was raised for 17 years in the catholic church and 12 years in catholic schools, so I can speak with authority here. I left when I was 17 for 17 years of drunkenness and sin because the church told me so many times that "thou shalt not" and I was sick of it. THEN I GOT SAVED in 1989 and I could see the errors that I was taught. One thing I saw clearly was that Mary was equal to God according to the catholic church. They had statues, masses, SPECIAL HOLY DAYS FOR MARY ALONE!!!! Feast of the assumption (and she was NOT assumed into heaven by the way) , feast of the annunciation (when Gabrial announced that Mary was to have Jesus) and the feast of the Immaculate conception. The Hail Mary prayer says clearly that catholics ask Mary to pray & intercede for them, which is BLASPHEMY on the part of catholics because there is ONE mediator between God & man and it's NOT MARY. This thing about crosses & statue worship came from the catholic chruch making money from the sale of statues. Think I'm nuts yet? How about their doing away with the 2nd commandment (about graven images) and splitting the 10th into 2 parts so as to still have 10? Finally, the real 2nd commandment says not to make a graven image of anything in heaven on earth or under the earth AND BOW DOWN & WORSHIP IT. A cross on or in a church is not sinful. A cross with A likeness of Jesus on it is! And so are statues of Jesus, Mary & Joseph, Christopher, Angels, etc. You need to either open your eyes or stop defending the catholic church.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I can only hope that it is not hatred that drives your opinions. Perhaps I can give you some references that might help to relieve some of your concerns and misconception.

I have no hatred for anyone or any church. Why do people always think it is hatred to point out someones wrong beliefs? Why did you even waste time with all those catholic websites and then have the nerve to say they will point out MY misconceptions? The Bible is the ONLY authority here, not catholic, baptist or any websites for that matter.

 

[FireBrand]

The Bible is the ONLY authority here

Which version ?
The Protestant chopped up version ? (KJ)
Jehovah's Witness chopped up version ?

Which one :shrug:

 

[ItalianScallion]

I don't see it either.
Given: Mary = Mother of Jesus.
Given: Jesus = God...
Ergo: Mary = Mother of God :. quod erat demonstrandum.
I think she's quite deserving of the respect shown to her. I would still say that none of this consitutes worship. I have little statues all over my house. Everytime someone dies, there's a procession... I think you're reading too much into the Catholic esteem of Mary.

Jesus had 2 natures. He was both God and man at the same time, so He could claim equality with God and also claim God as His Father while praying to Him. Mary was the mother of the man Jesus not of the 2nd person of the Godhead. They should have said Mary was the mother of Jesus, NOT GOD to be correct, but the prayer is still sinful because of the ending. It does constitute worship and read my post just before this one on how many "holy days of obligation" there are for Mary.

Although I was of the understanding that with both baptism and confession the priest was not the forgiving force. God is.

We were taught that a priest can forgive sins and that is blasphemy(a man claiming to be God or have power that only God has[Mark 2v7]).

And I'd be loathe to use the word 'heresy' or 'blasphemy'. Heresy and Blasphemy seem to me to be deliberate willful acts of spite against God which come from the heart, whereas most Catholics who engage in the above behavior aren't deliberatly opposing or antogonizing God; they just haven't taken the time to read and/or understand the bible they proclaim to follow.That's the real crime, IMO.

I agree that's possible, but having spoke to thousands of them, they all vehemently argue that I am wrong, which means that the Bible is wrong too because that is what I quote from. (We know that ain't the case!)

 

[ItalianScallion]

2A - Catholics are not taught that doctrine and tradition are equal to scripture. Catholics believe that scripture and oral Tradition go hand in hand,

This is why the Jews today STILL don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah and are still waiting for Him. You can't depend on oral tradition but they do. Read Matthew 28v12-15.
Back to the pope issue. Peter was not the person that the church was built on. The english translation doesn't distinguish between the Rock & the rock. Jesus called Peter a rock (petros) but upon this Rock (Petra) I will build my church. So this pope/Peter thing is man made, not Biblical.

 

[Toxick]

It does constitute worship and read my post just before this one on how many "holy days of obligation" there are for Mary.

I remember a few months ago some muslims came in here, and they began asserting that Christians are polytheists because they worship more than one god. Three to be exact.

Every christian in the joint flat out said, "No. We are not polytheists. We believe in one God. Your understanding of our faith is inaccurate."

They continued to insist that Christianity was, in fact, polytheism. Even though the practictioners directly told them that they believe in A Single God and therefore they are NOT polytheists. And yet these people persisted in their presumptuous contradiction.



You are doing that right now.

It is therefore pointless to continue any further discussion in which you will not listen, nor stop misrepresenting the other side with your preconceived notions.



Have a nice day.

 

[unixpirate]

....you are going to hell?

Kids and I are good

 

[ItalianScallion]

" What this means is that the Roman Catholic Church has the most effective and most accurate pathway towards salvation through Jesus Christ. This belief is most extensively based on this in Matthew 16:18-19...
Oh and to an earlier poster...the Church still teaches the existence of purgatory because of its continued implication in Scripture. The Church, however, renounced the teaching that a "state of limbo" existed for young unborn or newly born children that died before they could be baptized. These babies were at first argued to have not been able to enjoy the beatific vision because of the lack of baptism and as a result were still present with original sin, but now after further study and readings of early Christian writers, such a teaching has been halted. This occured around the beginning of this year.

The catholic church is about 60/40 right now. 60% truth and 40% man made doctrine and that is not good, so I can't accept that they are "the most accurate pathway towards salvation through Jesus Christ".
The Apocryphal books, 14 in all, 7 that the catholic church, uses are PROVEN to have many wrong dates & other doctrinal errors in them, that is why they were not included in the canon of the Bible. So, if you believe those books, you will be mislead and see real contradictions between them and the actual 66 books. The catholic church makes money on infant baptisms this is why they are done. Baptism NEVER forgives sins! it is a visual sign of one having been saved, just as a wedding ring doesn't make you married but is a visual sign that you are. Babies do not go to hell, hades or limbo if they aren't baptized and there is NO original sin. We are not born WITH sin, we are born with a sin nature. That means, if we live long enough to be accountable (know right from wrong) we WILL eventually sin. Again, this is not hatred towards catholics, 98% of my family is catholic. It is just to point out the truth for those interested.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I remember a few months ago some muslims came in here, and they began asserting that Christians are polytheists because they worship more than one god. Three to be exact.

Every christian in the joint flat out said, "No. We are not polytheists. We believe in one God. Your understanding of our faith is inaccurate."

They continued to insist that Christianity was, in fact, polytheism. Even though the practictioners directly told them that they believe in A Single God and therefore they are NOT polytheists. And yet these people persisted in their presumptuous contradiction.

You are doing that right now.

It is therefore pointless to continue any further discussion in which you will not listen, nor stop misrepresenting the other side with your preconceived notions.

Have a nice day.

You're right. I shouldn't have a battle of wits with unarmed people. I'll pray that God opens your heart to HIS truth and not some churches doctrine. Comparing ANYTHING Christian to muslims! Have a nice day also.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Which version ?
The Protestant chopped up version ? (KJ)
Jehovah's Witness chopped up version ?

Which one :shrug:

NIV, NASV, NASB, Living Bible, Ryrie, Scoffield, etc., but NOT the 2 that you mentioned above.

 

[Toxick]

You're right. I shouldn't have a battle of wits with unarmed people.

Wow. You sure got me with that one.

How quickly you resort to insults.

I'll pray that God opens your heart to HIS truth and not some churches doctrine.

Don't bother. I'm not Catholic. I don't follow their doctrine.

Again you're presuming way too much.

Comparing ANYTHING Christian to muslims!

Get over yourself. You are engaging in the same behavior they were. If you don't like the comparison, then stop.

 

[Midnightrider]

The catholic church is about 60/40 right now. 60% truth and 40% man made doctrine ....

no, all chrisitian faiths are 100% man made doctrine. Men wrote the bible, there is no way arond it, to ignore this FACT is the true injustice to God.

 

[rraley]

It is just to point out the truth for those interested.

I wouldn't call what you've been saying about the Church truth at all. Obviously something really upset you about the Church during your time with us. Probably a bad priest or a bad nun or some other bad example of a Catholic. You are presenting your opinion, which is based on a literal and superficial understanding of both the Church and the Bible. Your view of religion is understandable, but I do not understand why you feel it necessary to be so inflammatory and degrading of my religion, which has one billion adherents. You have misrepresented my faith.

I suggest that either you keep to learning more about your own religion and trying to convert people to Jesus's way. However, I ask that you stop degrading my faith. And, you are not an authority on the Church. Just because you were a Catholic for seventeen years in the 60s and 70s doesn't mean that you are an authority. Did you read the Catechism? How about the documents of early Church leaders? Confessions by St. Augustine? Have you talked with more than two priests abotu these things? Do you have a degree in theology? If you haven't done these things, then shut up and never use the term "authority" in regards to a religion that you do not belong to.

 

[Toxick]

no, all chrisitian faiths are 100% man made doctrine. Men wrote the bible, there is no way arond it, to ignore this FACT is the true injustice to God.

Thanks for clearing that up.





I'm getting an image of you at a party. There are several groups at the party talking about all sorts of things. You go get yourself a refreshing beverage from the punchbowl and look for places to mingle. You meander over to a nearby group, where several guys are talking about football. You listen for a couple minutes and then chime in with, "You know football is just a bunch of senseless violence, and the players are all thugs. I don't know how you can stand to watch it".

You then go over to another group discussing politics. A democrat and a republican are arguing the relative merits of their party and the weakesses of their opponents. You pipe in with, "Both political parties are filled with crooks and weasels. You all should be ashamed for aligning yourselves with these crminals".

Move over to the people discussing their favorite TV shows. You fill everyone in on your belief that everything on TV is worthless tripe, and anyone who watches the idiot-box is a braindead zombie.

A bunch of people talking about the some new songs they've been hearing on the radio. You tell them how the music industry has completely sapped out all creativity in music, and nothing original has been created in decades, and that anyone who listens to the crap spewing out of the radio is a moron.



What fun.

 

[CAPPY2609]

why does faith have to be prepackaged and mass marketed? Its almost as if each faith tries to sell itself as being better than brand x.
In heaven I dont god cares what church you went to as long as you were a good person and brought goodness (not righteousness) to those around you.