Environmentalist Opposes Affordable Housing

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Clare Whitbeck

Guest
Hi Oz 'n all
I just received the first notice that anyone was out there. Glad to join the discussion or answer questions. I don't think either political party is all that much better at making room for everyone. Democrats talk about equality and Republicans don't, but who is really doing anything helpful? War and balanced budgets are taking away all the money to help anyone, at least for while.
Clare
 

Oz

You're all F'in Mad...
Originally posted by Oz
Wildewood wasn't part of the lawsuit outlined in the Post Extra. How does that overcrowding that you mention effect Lexington Park Apartments or the First Colony development?

Trying to protect children does not make you liberal. But I don't think it's fair to disguise your political motives and philosophy as protecting children. The quality of education has more to do with the materials, teachers and parents than the size of the class as dictated by powerful teachers unions, but that's another discussion.

From reading the article and your messages here, I get two distinct motives for the lawsuit. One is that you want to save the children, and secondly you want to save the developers "hundreds of thousands" of dollars. Both are statements that pander to the uninformed. I don't believe either one is a reason for filing suit against the county over procedure.

You say that we need housing for all income ranges, but you file a lawsuit to stop housing development. Both developments are located in development districts. So now we have people developing the areas that the zoning ordinance directs them to.

I'm sure you've heard Dr. Richardson say that the schools are built to need. You attend more meetings than I do and I've heard those words from her. So, if we stop development, we won't need schools. And if we don't have seats in school, we can't build more homes.

The county doesn't need one more lawsuit. Defending this is a frivelous waste of county resources that promise to be thin over the coming years. I think it's irresponsible to litigate over procedure because you think that adequate public facilities must be studied now, and our county attorney and planner think it comes later in the process. Either way, the site plan must meet those standards, now or later and before they turn any dirt or pour any footers.

Sorry about the re-quote everyone...

Mrs Whitbeck - here's my original message from the exchange last week before it got off-topic...
 
C

Clare Whitbeck

Guest
Hi ,Oz

Hi Oz ‘n all,
Wildewood and Settler's Landing (First Colony) share the same schools, although I understand that the Board of Education has decided to send the Settlers Landing children to overcrowded Leonardtown Elementary instead of overcrowded Hollywood.

Overcrowded schools don't just result in larger class size. In most schools they also result in children having classes in trailers. I know many believe that the trailers are in better shape than the classrooms, but that is no longer true. Teachers who teach in trailers have told me that many are old, too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer. Some don't have a blackboard, reasonable access to toilets, etc.. Two years ago there were studies on the Dep't of Education's web site showing that educational achievement sinks when elementary children are placed in trailers. According to the January 29 Enterprise, Lexington Park Elementary's children followed the same pattern when placed in the trailers of the annex.

If the developers can't legally build their projects, what is the point of their laying out hundreds of thousands of dollars in engineering fees only to be brought to a halt, with an outstanding loan accumulating interest that needs to be paid, because there is no room in the schools? They might as well wait until they can proceed all the way.

The real reasons for filing the suit are to get the procedure followed, as well as to try to protect the children. I believe that Lexington Park Apartments might get to go when the schools are redistricted. That will depend on how the redistricting proceeds, and how many children show up at Great Mills next year.

I have heard Dr. Richardson say that schools follow development. But she is not quite correct. Schools following building, which is different from development. There is nothing in the APF that will stop building. The are lots available, and subdivisions of four lots or less can continue to be created. There have already been so many subdivisions approved for development that the schools will become overcrowded even if we allow no new development

This lawsuit may be frivolous to you, but to me it means that the law will be followed or publicly changed, not subverted in the back room of Planning and Zoning, or Land Use and Growth Management, or whatever it is called today. What you may not realize is that there will not be another public decision on Settlers Landing/First Colony. The Planning Director will make the final decision in the back room. Given that he has not followed the procedure now, what will assure that he/she will follow it later when no one is there to watch?

Finally, the Commissioners who vote to overcrowd the schools will have to pay the political price for that vote. The real solution to this problem is to build the schools, not to change the rules.
Regards to all
Clare
(I don't have much confidence in Mr. Norris/Lacer. He/they thought we were wrong on Callaway, too.)
 
C

Clare Whitbeck

Guest
Tread Lightly (again)

Hi cariblue,
"If I waste your tax $$ on frivolous lawsuits. . ." Who said I was the one wasting your tax $$? How about the government which is defending not making a finding of APF when the Zoning Ordinance specifically says the Planning Commission must make findings that the proposed development "Will be served by adequate public facilities." (see page 60-3 of the zoning ordinance on the County web site). Maybe your government is wasting your tax dollars, as usual.
Clare
 

MGKrebs

endangered species
I'm an outsider (from Atlanta, GA), but, how does this work? Is the developer supposed to provide the land for a school? Or even build the building? Or does the community have to come up with the resources to support the development?
 
C

Clare Whitbeck

Guest
Reply to MGKrebs

Hi MGKrebs,
Developers are not required to furnish anything with regard to schools. The taxpayers of the county pay for the schools. In the past, St. Mary's has been split costs about 50/50 with the State, but the State is in financial disarray this year. The currently proposed State funding would allow only those projects already approved to proceed, so our chances of getting funding for a new school are slight. There is an impact fee which is supposed to pay for schools, but the $4,500 per house fee for new homes is not equal to the cost of the school seat (.4719 per house or about $11,000) for children. Every new home built which pays only a $4,500 impact fee puts us further and further behind in financing schools.
Clare
 

Oz

You're all F'in Mad...
Mrs. Whitbeck,

Thank you for responding. I appreciate the information from your perspective, even though I disagree with that point of view.

Is your definition of overcrowded based on class size, or the number of trailers used at a particular site? Because, thanks to the NEA, an overcrowded class is any class with more than 20 students. I think that number varies slightly based on elementary/middle/high. But, if we're using these numbers to decide that a school needs to add seats "outside" in a trailer, then the unions are creating this "need" where it doesn't exist. These unions aren't protecting the children - they're protecting the state education budgets at the expense of the children. I had roughly 35 kids in my class, from 2nd through 8th grade at a Catholic school, and our education didn't suffer. This actually leads us to a different discussion on the merits of our educational system, and I really wanted to focus on the lawsuit. But since you mentioned overcrowded, I'm curious how you have defined overcrowded for the purpose of your argument.

I also think that if taxpayers were aware of the beautiful office facilities built over the last 4 years on Moakley street, there might be some head-scratching about how those tax dollars were "invested."

I still don't understand that you have an interest in saving the money and investment of developers, otherwise, your position would be supported by someone in that community.

I don't think anyone in business is going to see this suit as anything other than anti-development. It's not for either of us to determine how someone else invests their money. Businesspeople take risks every day. If my choice is to have this project ready to turn dirt the day APF is determined, or I can save my money, and then start planning the project -if- school space -ever- opens up, then I'm going to get as far as I can go, because the process is very long. It's going to take 18 months from my first trip visit with planning and zoning to my final site plan approval anyway.

As a taxpayer, I have to pay to defend this litigation because you don't have confidence in the planner and the attorney. The project must meet APF anyway, today, tomorrow, or 6 months from now. With the caseload of our court system, will it even be heard before APF is determined for these projects? What if the ZO is updated first? That is a work in progress right now, currently in a 10 day public comment phase.

Krebs - you don't want developers donating land (or building swimming pools) that the county can't afford to open and operate, in exchange for zoning favors. I hope that won't happen again. (I think Mrs. W and I may agree on this!)

As far as the impact fee, as described above, that money is going towards public facilities, including education, parks and recs, etc. But, we cannot forget that the same house also pays property tax every year, forever, and our previous commissioner board raised that tax rate. Then add the income/piggyback tax that the working members of that household are contributing from every paycheck. And, those folks are going to visit local businesses creating jobs, and generating sales tax revenues. So that $4500 impact fee then generates how much tax revenue for the county over 1 year or 10 years? My neighborhood has 60 homes, but the folks driving out to go to work in the morning, outnumber the children put on the school bus each day.
 
Hi Oz ‘n all,
It’s not my definition of overcrowded, but the number of seats that the State of Maryland says is in a building based the State formula. In elementary schools, the County’s capacity is lower than the State’s. The school system has been able to improve test scores by lowering the number of children in first and second grade, hence they have set class sizes lower in those grades. I had no more than 15 children in any high school class I took, and I received an excellent education. Like you, I wasn’t in a public school either. But I don’t think our educational experiences are applicable. Private schools can expel children who make trouble and then they go to - - - the public schools. Public schools have to educate every child who comes to them, irrespective of whether the children are ready or not. And now they must make sure that no child is left behind. This could turn into a discussion of whether No Child Left Behind will result in average and gifted children being held back so that slow children can keep up, but let’s not go there.
Like you, I was stunned when I visited the Moakley Castle. I would like to have colonial chair moldings and lovely wall paper in my home. I would have loved to be able to afford the kind of furniture in Moakley when I was buying office furniture for the companies where I was office manager. As long as they don’t replace that furniture for the next 60 years, I suppose it could be considered an investment.
Developers only want one thing - “Let me do whatever I want whenever I want to.” Their assumption is that they will be allowed to develop at the end of the process, no matter how many children’s educations get shorted. They consider this lawsuit to be a nuisance that will be wiped away. I guess we’ll see.
May I ask why you have confidence in the Planner and the Attorney? I and others who joined me knew when I filed the suit that it might be made moot before it ever got to court. I will repeat what was said in an earlier post. If the Commissioners change the rules, they will have to do it in public, not behind closed doors in the back room. And they will have to pay the political price if they vote to cause even more overcrowding of our schools.
I take it you feel that this suit is a waste of time. I think government in public is a necessity for a democracy.
I don’t think zoning favors should be given to anyone, just as you thought.
Let’s talk about the property taxes paid by homes. At $.908/100, a $370,000 house would pay $3,359 in property taxes. That house would contain .4719 children. The cost per pupil is $7,137 or $3367.95 per house per year (.4719 children times $7,137). How many $370,000 houses are there in St. Mary’s County? Please note that the property taxes for that $370,000 house only pay operating costs for schools, not operating costs for trash disposal, roads, Sheriff’s Department, libraries, Planning and Zoning, the Department of Public Works and Transportation, Parks and Recs, Community Services, Office on Aging, or our BOCC’s staff. When the county budget for next year is published so I can see how much income comes from income tax as opposed to property tax, I’ll take a better rough cut. Meanwhile, let’s not talk about homes that pay property tax. Most of them cost more in services than they pay. I’m sure that there are more folks going to work than there are children going to school. 60 times two equals 120 parents, while .4719 times 60 equals 28 children to go to school.
Regards,
Clare
 
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Oz

You're all F'in Mad...
May I ask why you have confidence in the Planner and the Attorney? I and others who joined me knew when I filed the suit that it might be made moot before it ever got to court.

I grew up with our County Attorney, and would consider him a personal friend. I believe him to be educated, ethical, competent and conscientious when it comes to local government/law.

Our Planner (or former planner?) has always been regarded by people I know as a good technician. From dealing with DPZ, one might make a determination that administration is what is lacking in that department, reflective of the skills of the department head. How many businesses have a sign that says that unruly customers will be removed by the police?

If you're really interested in saving developers thousands of dollars, -AND- saving the children then why wouldn't you include the school board/administration/system in your legal action? How much less does Ryken spend per pupil to produce better results?

As far as I am concerned, if you really have the financial interests of developers and educational interests of children in your heart, then your legal action is directed at the wrong parties.
 
I like the County Attorney too, and I am certain he is educated. Of course the County Attorney said I was wrong, he gets paid to say that. My attorney has a different opinion. We shall see what the judge says.

The problem that caused this current suit to be filed is that the procedure wasn't followed. This would have enabled the Adequate Facilities part of the zoning ordinance to be changed by administration, something that I have been told happened with the last zoning ordinance. A person who works at the Planning Office told me that there were the rules in the book, and then there were the rules that weren't in the book, then added that the rules not in the book changed from day to day and person to person. Another acquaintance told me that one person got one answer to a planning question in the morning, and another got a different answer to the same question in the afternoon. I, myself, sat in the room during a meeting with a developer when the person conducting the meeting said that the person hadn't spoken with Mr Grimm and so didn't know what the ordinance would require. The person could read, but it apparently didn't matter what the ordinance said. These kinds of experiences may be the reason why the "technician" has been given notice. They are also why I don't have confidence in the "technician".

The inability to change the rules in the back room has forced the BOCC to change the Adequate Facilities portion of the ordinance in writing and in public, where everyone can see the change, and hold them responsible.

The fact that the developers can also benefit financially by being told when development cannot go forward is not the main result of the lawsuit, but it is a result.

It is my ambition to see the rules of
government be the same for everyone, and to see government conducted according to its rules. I don't consider that a frivolous aim.

As a result of the proposed public changes to the Adequate Facilities, children have lost the battle for the smaller classes that have helped improve educational test scores over the past few years. The developers will win and continue to develop. I don't think developers' desire to build now is more important than children's education. I repeat, the solution is to build the schools, not to deliberately overcrowd the existing ones. I believe the final result of this overcrowding will be as it has been in Charles County - that building permits will be restricted.

Finally, considering that Ryken can refuse any child who might be difficult to educate and has VERY small classes (at least the ones I visited), it would be failing miserably if it could not produce a better educated child more cheaply than the public school which has to accept everyone. I don't know how many special education kids there are who go to school outside the County because their educational needs cannot be met here. Each of those children cost close to $50,000 a year to educate. Comparing Ryken and the public schools is like comparing a feather and a car. They have little in common.

Sorry this is so long.

Regards,
Clare
 

Oz

You're all F'in Mad...
I believe Mrs Whitbeck lost her lawsuit, and then filed an appeal. So, you and I are going to pay to defend this lawsuit a second time. Too bad our court system doesn't allow for the taxpayers to be reimbursed for all the staff time wasted defending lawsuits time and time again.
 
F

Frostillicus

Guest
....uh, sorry, whut? I was busy staring at those jugs in your avatar :blushing:
 

Steve

Enjoying life!
Maybe she'll come back on the forums and explain why she is attacking her issue a second time.

And an exceptional avatar, I must agree.
 
K

Kain99

Guest
Originally posted by Frostillicus
....uh, sorry, whut? I was busy staring at those jugs in your avatar :blushing:

Oh Puhlease!!! They're as fake, as Clare's Public Agenda! :rolleyes:
 
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Frostillicus

Guest
Oh my god, Becky, look at her jugs
They're is so big
She looks like one of those rap guys girlfriends
Who understands those rap guys
They only talk to her because she looks like a total prostitute, ok?
I mean her jugs
They're just so big
I can't believe they're so round
They're just out there
I mean, they're gross!
 
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