Environmentalist Opposes Affordable Housing
- Thread starter Oz
- Start date
K
Kain99
Guest
It's working!
No, we don't.
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
Why appeal Judge Raley's decision? If you had seen the wink and wave the developer gave The Honorable Clarke Raley as he (the developer) left the court room, you might understand. Also, if you read the opinion, you might understand. The wink seemed to imply some special relationship between the developer and the judge. The opinion treated the case as a zoning case, which in my view it was not. I think if the hearing is moved from St. Mary's County, the result may be different. Further, there still are not seats at Great Mills for the children who will live in one development. I doubt there will be seats in the middle schools, either.
Regards,
Clare
Regards,
Clare
Oz
You're all F'in Mad...
So far, the reasons for this lawsuit from this thread are as follows:
1) Disagree with trained attorney and planner on APF procedure
2) Save developers money
3) Save the children
(Did I miss any?)
And finally, the latest reason:
4) A wave and a wink!
The projects that provoked this lawsuit will build much needed apartment housing in the Lexington Park area, where development is supposed to go. Many of the folks who will live there probably can't afford to live in Wildewood or Breton Bay.
It seems that you should just honestly say you're against all development instead of throwing out all of these reasons until one sticks.
1) Disagree with trained attorney and planner on APF procedure
2) Save developers money
3) Save the children
(Did I miss any?)
And finally, the latest reason:
4) A wave and a wink!
The projects that provoked this lawsuit will build much needed apartment housing in the Lexington Park area, where development is supposed to go. Many of the folks who will live there probably can't afford to live in Wildewood or Breton Bay.
It seems that you should just honestly say you're against all development instead of throwing out all of these reasons until one sticks.
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
Because I'm not opposed to all development.
Oz, are you a teacher? Have you ever been in a public school classroom? Have you read the research on class size in schools? Our schools are not the greatest in the State, and they need to be better than they are. It's not just the Moakley Street Palace that's causing the problem. Overcrowded classrooms do cause declines in test scores. (I won't debate the testing process. It's all we have as a measure of childrens' learning.)
What I am hoping to accomplish is to get a reliable source of funding for additional schools. Then let the building proceed in the development district. Neither the County nor the State has money to build our needed schools. So if development continues, we'll overcrowd them and watch the drop-out rate rise in the high schools.
Further, have you read the the Zoning Ordinance? It says the Planning Commission "shall make findings" which it declined to make. How much clearer than that can you get? If you think the Zoning Ordinance should be changed, then get it changed at the Commissioners' table, not in the back room of the zoning office. Of course that "trained planner" is no longer with us, and his replacement is studying issues on school capacity. It will be interesting to see what he proposes for a change.
Regards,
Clare
Oz, are you a teacher? Have you ever been in a public school classroom? Have you read the research on class size in schools? Our schools are not the greatest in the State, and they need to be better than they are. It's not just the Moakley Street Palace that's causing the problem. Overcrowded classrooms do cause declines in test scores. (I won't debate the testing process. It's all we have as a measure of childrens' learning.)
What I am hoping to accomplish is to get a reliable source of funding for additional schools. Then let the building proceed in the development district. Neither the County nor the State has money to build our needed schools. So if development continues, we'll overcrowd them and watch the drop-out rate rise in the high schools.
Further, have you read the the Zoning Ordinance? It says the Planning Commission "shall make findings" which it declined to make. How much clearer than that can you get? If you think the Zoning Ordinance should be changed, then get it changed at the Commissioners' table, not in the back room of the zoning office. Of course that "trained planner" is no longer with us, and his replacement is studying issues on school capacity. It will be interesting to see what he proposes for a change.
Regards,
Clare
Oz
You're all F'in Mad...
I have never seen a project that you liked. And I say that because at the Planning Commission and/or Commissioner meetings, you always comment against whatever project. Same goes for Bob Lewis. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just wish you folks would simply state that, instead of trying to use "the children" as a wrapping paper. You guys wanted development concentrated in development districts, and then found a way to squash growth there too!
To answer all of your school questions, no. However, we spend $300 more per pupil than our neighboring counties. Quite frankly, I'm sick of government throwing money at every little program and special interest. Someone needs to decide what balance we need, and then take tough decisions on what to fund. We definitely need school buildings and seats. Imagine if the State and county still had the money from the good times? The previous board, and our State delegation has squandered hundreds of millions of dollars. Thankfully, St. Mary's voters mandated a change last year, but these folks still have to deal with the problems created before them.
Where are we going to get a source for funds, if we don't allow the tax base to expand? It won't expand if we can't house the people to work here. Unemployment in St. Mary's county is around 2.8%. Comprising that are either highly qualified professionals, or folks who lack qualification for much of anything.
How many kids are in our schools? If we take the extra $300 we spend per pupil, and save it for 1 year, could we afford to build a school in 5 years? With over 16,000 students, that's more than $24 million dollars. That might build a nice school. The Board of Ed has 58 managers in the school system earning over $72,000 per year. Do we need all of those? When business falls on tough times, management gets cut or produces more. There's a new school, and it's already in the budget. Challenge management to make it work.
To answer all of your school questions, no. However, we spend $300 more per pupil than our neighboring counties. Quite frankly, I'm sick of government throwing money at every little program and special interest. Someone needs to decide what balance we need, and then take tough decisions on what to fund. We definitely need school buildings and seats. Imagine if the State and county still had the money from the good times? The previous board, and our State delegation has squandered hundreds of millions of dollars. Thankfully, St. Mary's voters mandated a change last year, but these folks still have to deal with the problems created before them.
Where are we going to get a source for funds, if we don't allow the tax base to expand? It won't expand if we can't house the people to work here. Unemployment in St. Mary's county is around 2.8%. Comprising that are either highly qualified professionals, or folks who lack qualification for much of anything.
How many kids are in our schools? If we take the extra $300 we spend per pupil, and save it for 1 year, could we afford to build a school in 5 years? With over 16,000 students, that's more than $24 million dollars. That might build a nice school. The Board of Ed has 58 managers in the school system earning over $72,000 per year. Do we need all of those? When business falls on tough times, management gets cut or produces more. There's a new school, and it's already in the budget. Challenge management to make it work.
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
Hi Oz,
Can you tell me where you got the number of $300 more from? I've checked the web sites and the only number for 2003 I can find is the St. Mary's Board of Education. The 1998 or 99 numbers showed St. Mary's about $400 more in 2003 than Charles and Calvert in 1998 or 1999. I bet St. Mary's was about the same of less in 1998 or 1999. If you want to use the $300 for construction, you better run for County Commissioner and Board of Education so you can ensure the money gets used the way you want it used. I don't happen to like the Board of Ed's budget process at all, and would welcome you to run. However, unless I run for Baord of Ed, I can't do much about it.
Your assumption that there is no other source for school dollars but to rapidly expand our tax base has some holes in it. If an expanding tax base could take care of the problem, neither Calvert nor Charles Counties would have their $10,000 (and $12,000 in case of Calvert) impact fees/excies taxes for school construction. Rapid expansion doesn't produce the money. It just produces more children to put in the schools.
The new schools you say we have were to take care of past overenrollment, not present problems.
Have you read the research about class size and learning yet? Check edu.gov for more information.
Regards,
Clare
Can you tell me where you got the number of $300 more from? I've checked the web sites and the only number for 2003 I can find is the St. Mary's Board of Education. The 1998 or 99 numbers showed St. Mary's about $400 more in 2003 than Charles and Calvert in 1998 or 1999. I bet St. Mary's was about the same of less in 1998 or 1999. If you want to use the $300 for construction, you better run for County Commissioner and Board of Education so you can ensure the money gets used the way you want it used. I don't happen to like the Board of Ed's budget process at all, and would welcome you to run. However, unless I run for Baord of Ed, I can't do much about it.
Your assumption that there is no other source for school dollars but to rapidly expand our tax base has some holes in it. If an expanding tax base could take care of the problem, neither Calvert nor Charles Counties would have their $10,000 (and $12,000 in case of Calvert) impact fees/excies taxes for school construction. Rapid expansion doesn't produce the money. It just produces more children to put in the schools.
The new schools you say we have were to take care of past overenrollment, not present problems.
Have you read the research about class size and learning yet? Check edu.gov for more information.
Regards,
Clare
Oz
You're all F'in Mad...
As best I could find based on the 3 local BOE web sites:
Charles: $7554.38 per pupil funded FY04
Calvert: $7208.54 per pupil FY03 actual
St. Mary's: $7899.85 per pupil funded FY04
Obviously, school demographics can change between now and August 25. But, these are the closest thing to real numbers that we have to work with.
The "over $300" was actually stated by one of our Commissioners.
To contrast, Ryken has a $5700 annual tuition, and produces better test scores. I realize your answer to that statement will be that the Public schools must take all students and educate them, so I'll agree with that.
As for running for office, it's much more fun to watch! Since we're in the same district, I probably couldn't count on your crossover vote if I made it past the primary election. Like most of our current board, I'm no longer a Democrat!
I never said rapid expansion. With a severe housing shortage, it seems we're behind the curve on housing expansion. Rapid expansion, since you mentioned it, may be necessary to catch up with today's demand.
Charles: $7554.38 per pupil funded FY04
Calvert: $7208.54 per pupil FY03 actual
St. Mary's: $7899.85 per pupil funded FY04
Obviously, school demographics can change between now and August 25. But, these are the closest thing to real numbers that we have to work with.
The "over $300" was actually stated by one of our Commissioners.
To contrast, Ryken has a $5700 annual tuition, and produces better test scores. I realize your answer to that statement will be that the Public schools must take all students and educate them, so I'll agree with that.
As for running for office, it's much more fun to watch! Since we're in the same district, I probably couldn't count on your crossover vote if I made it past the primary election. Like most of our current board, I'm no longer a Democrat!
I never said rapid expansion. With a severe housing shortage, it seems we're behind the curve on housing expansion. Rapid expansion, since you mentioned it, may be necessary to catch up with today's demand.
Christy
b*tch rocket
A bit
but I somewhat have to disagree that comparing public schools and private schools are like comparing apples and oranges.In public school my kid would have been considered one of those "hard to teach" kids. Was stuck in IEP etc etc... I pulled him out and put him a private (Montessori) school where they've educated him without "special programs" "counseling" etc.. He's been able to progress two grade levels in a year to catch up to where he's supposed to be for his age.
So I'm sorry, I don't buy the whole "we need more money" pumped into the public school system. Cut out all the high dollar "Administrator" types and re-allocate the cash flow to building more schools as well as rewarding good teachers.
Okay, off my soapbox.......
As usual, I can't be bothered to read through all the how, whys and wherefores of cheap housing that have been posted here. What I WILL say is that the market will bear out. If there was truly a demand for cheap housing, some developer would be enterprising enough to provide it. Of course, then the low-renters would destroy it and the community crybabies would call him a "slumlord" in the Letters to the Editor section of the Enterprise. Ya can't win.
Get a roommate. Get a second job. Go to school and get an ejumacashun so you can do better in life. When you're young, you're supposed to struggle. You're supposed to have roommates to help with the rent. You're supposed to eat hot dogs and spaghetti. Very few of us graduated from high school or college and immediately bought a 4 BR, 3 BA house on the water.
Everyone jumped on Dems for saying "Their options were the small number of individual apartments that are mainly occuppied by white trash." Why? It's true. And if they built more "affordable" (read: low-income) housing, those would get rapidly filled with trash as well. Ask any nice person who lives in an apartment in the county - they'll tell you their neighbors are trashy no-accounts, with few exceptions.
Get a roommate. Get a second job. Go to school and get an ejumacashun so you can do better in life. When you're young, you're supposed to struggle. You're supposed to have roommates to help with the rent. You're supposed to eat hot dogs and spaghetti. Very few of us graduated from high school or college and immediately bought a 4 BR, 3 BA house on the water.
Everyone jumped on Dems for saying "Their options were the small number of individual apartments that are mainly occuppied by white trash." Why? It's true. And if they built more "affordable" (read: low-income) housing, those would get rapidly filled with trash as well. Ask any nice person who lives in an apartment in the county - they'll tell you their neighbors are trashy no-accounts, with few exceptions.
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
Hi Cariblue,
Like you I'm sick of hearing about overcrowding. But unlike you, I'm doing something to try to ease the overcrowding. I was in classes with 40 students in junior high school, but my parents removed me from the public schools which had classes that size so I could get an excellent education.
I don't think the family's income ought to determine the quality of a child's education. All Americans vote. All Americans need an excellent education so they can vote intelligently,
as this last election proves.
Regards,
Clare
Like you I'm sick of hearing about overcrowding. But unlike you, I'm doing something to try to ease the overcrowding. I was in classes with 40 students in junior high school, but my parents removed me from the public schools which had classes that size so I could get an excellent education.
I don't think the family's income ought to determine the quality of a child's education. All Americans vote. All Americans need an excellent education so they can vote intelligently,
as this last election proves.
Regards,
Clare
Really. Then I take it you're a proponent of vouchers?
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
"cheap housing"
Hi Vraiblonde,
Your comment about how demand would create cheap housing is, I am afraid, not based in fact. At the Housing Forum last Spring, we learned that there is little demand in St. Mary's County for the $250,000 homes presently being built and a great demand for low income housing. So how many low income projects have come through the development pipeline? Only one, and it is only partially for low income people. We also learned that a developer cannot make money on low income housing unless it is (Oh what a horrible idea!) "subsidized by the government." Demand is not the motivator. Profit is.
Regards,
Clare
Hi Vraiblonde,
Your comment about how demand would create cheap housing is, I am afraid, not based in fact. At the Housing Forum last Spring, we learned that there is little demand in St. Mary's County for the $250,000 homes presently being built and a great demand for low income housing. So how many low income projects have come through the development pipeline? Only one, and it is only partially for low income people. We also learned that a developer cannot make money on low income housing unless it is (Oh what a horrible idea!) "subsidized by the government." Demand is not the motivator. Profit is.
Regards,
Clare
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
Hello Christy,
I think the topic is flexing, so your comments are certainly not any more off topic than anyone else's.
I hope the school your son is attending is certified. My sister sent her step daughter to a little religious school that taught grades one through eight. Small classes, but teachers weren't certified. When the child arrived at public high school, she was so far behind that she ran away rather than try to catch up. The step daughter was making above average grades in her little private school.
Apples and oranges? I agree with with OZ that private schools have a different student body and more active parents than public schools. It's the parents that make the difference. You made the difference for your son by finding a school that fit his needs. I'm back to saying that the quality of a child's education should not be based on the parent's income.
I have yet to decide what I think about vouchers. I like the idea of moving children from a school which doesn't perform. During my time as a teacher, I became convinced that an underperforming school had internal problems - usually a poor principal and/or poor teachers. But did you notice, when our underperforming schools offered to move children, only one or two parents took the school system up on the offer.
In theory, vouchers seem to be a great idea. Look how much money we could save if all our high school students went to Ryken. But then, I wonder if they would all be eligible to attend Ryken.
Can anyone tell me what school systems may be offering vouchers now, and how the vouchers are working?
Clare
I think the topic is flexing, so your comments are certainly not any more off topic than anyone else's.
I hope the school your son is attending is certified. My sister sent her step daughter to a little religious school that taught grades one through eight. Small classes, but teachers weren't certified. When the child arrived at public high school, she was so far behind that she ran away rather than try to catch up. The step daughter was making above average grades in her little private school.
Apples and oranges? I agree with with OZ that private schools have a different student body and more active parents than public schools. It's the parents that make the difference. You made the difference for your son by finding a school that fit his needs. I'm back to saying that the quality of a child's education should not be based on the parent's income.
I have yet to decide what I think about vouchers. I like the idea of moving children from a school which doesn't perform. During my time as a teacher, I became convinced that an underperforming school had internal problems - usually a poor principal and/or poor teachers. But did you notice, when our underperforming schools offered to move children, only one or two parents took the school system up on the offer.
In theory, vouchers seem to be a great idea. Look how much money we could save if all our high school students went to Ryken. But then, I wonder if they would all be eligible to attend Ryken.
Can anyone tell me what school systems may be offering vouchers now, and how the vouchers are working?
Clare
C
Clare Whitbeck
Guest
Hello Christy,
I think the topic is flexing, so your comments are certainly not any more off topic than anyone else's.
I hope the school your son is attending is certified. My sister sent her step daughter to a little religious school that taught grades one through eight. Small classes, but teachers weren't certified. When the child arrived at public high school, she was so far behind that she ran away rather than try to catch up. The step daughter was making above average grades in her little private school.
Apples and oranges? I agree with with OZ that private schools have a different student body and more active parents than public schools. It's the parents that make the difference. You made the difference for your son by finding a school that fit his needs. I'm back to saying that the quality of a child's education should not be based on the parent's income.
I have yet to decide what I think about vouchers. I like the idea of moving children from a school which doesn't perform. During my time as a teacher, I became convinced that an underperforming school had internal problems - usually a poor principal and/or poor teachers. But did you notice, when our underperforming schools offered to move children, only one or two parents took the school system up on the offer?
In theory, vouchers seem to be a great idea. Look how much money we could save if all our high school students went to Ryken. But then, I wonder if they would all be eligible to attend Ryken.
Can anyone tell me what school systems may be offering vouchers now, and how the vouchers are working?
Clare
I think the topic is flexing, so your comments are certainly not any more off topic than anyone else's.
I hope the school your son is attending is certified. My sister sent her step daughter to a little religious school that taught grades one through eight. Small classes, but teachers weren't certified. When the child arrived at public high school, she was so far behind that she ran away rather than try to catch up. The step daughter was making above average grades in her little private school.
Apples and oranges? I agree with with OZ that private schools have a different student body and more active parents than public schools. It's the parents that make the difference. You made the difference for your son by finding a school that fit his needs. I'm back to saying that the quality of a child's education should not be based on the parent's income.
I have yet to decide what I think about vouchers. I like the idea of moving children from a school which doesn't perform. During my time as a teacher, I became convinced that an underperforming school had internal problems - usually a poor principal and/or poor teachers. But did you notice, when our underperforming schools offered to move children, only one or two parents took the school system up on the offer?
In theory, vouchers seem to be a great idea. Look how much money we could save if all our high school students went to Ryken. But then, I wonder if they would all be eligible to attend Ryken.
Can anyone tell me what school systems may be offering vouchers now, and how the vouchers are working?
Clare