Fetal stem cells save lives

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

Well, that's your opinion, and I submit: If that's the way you feel about, why do you go to the doctor at all? Do you get your annual physical? Do you have a living will that states in the event of a survivable heart attack, do nothing? If you're in a bad car accident and can be repaired, do you choose to do nothing and die?

I don't think it would make any single individual a different person than they already are. My opinion.

...now you're just being stubborn.

Is there not a self evident difference between the motivation to do the best you can with what you have because it's all you got and that of having no need to because there is always more?

I try to take care so as to last as long as possible knowing that that, what is possible, is somewhere around from today up to about 30-40 years from now.

What's my long term view if I will likely live 200 years? 500? Forever?

I don't know and THAT is the question.

 

[mAlice]

...now you're just being stubborn.

No. You're being stubborn.

 

[Toxick]

Well, I wasn't expecting that.

When I first started reading this thread, I was expecting to hear the same old, "They're Babies!" "No they're not" argument.

And it turned into an argument about the ethics of immortality.


While I don't think that stem cells offer immortality, I can't think of a reason to denounce it as immoral or unethical based on the grounds that they can extend life, or even prolong it indefinitely.

When the Sun goes supernova, we're all fried anyway. (which is why I think we need to spend more money on space ventures - but I digress)


Anyway, if there was something inherently evil or sinful about extending life, then we all owe our Amish neighbors a big effing apology.

 

[Kerad]

...it can't.

We don't treat cancer so you can live forever. We don't treat AID's so you can live forever. We don't do heart transplants so you can live forever.

Fetal stem cell research, if it's the panacea claimed by it's advocates, will lead to you having a copy of your heart, your liver, your skin, your bones, every living cell, in storage that you would logically use when needed.

If we can do that, we can figure how the brain works...and how to operate it. How to...make one. Yours. Mine.

How far is it, once we can do all that, to controlling that energy, electricity really, that we call...life?

How far is it to plugging a USB cable into your body at night to back up your days events into your stored brain, you're spare unit?

How far to be real time so you are constantly uploading, every second, your conscience?

We do all of those things so we can live longer, or to improve the quality/condition of our life. Even if everything that researchers hope stem cell research can do comes to fruition...that alone will not make us immortal. We may not die from kidney failure...but we most certainly will die if we get crushed flat by a bolder, Wiley Coyote style. (He was a cartoon...not an immortal coyote.)

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

No. You're being stubborn.

...how are we going to resolve this? We can't just sit here, dug in, forever.


No...wait! Maybe soon we will be able to!

 

[mAlice]

...how are we going to resolve this? We can't just sit here, dug in, forever.


No...wait! Maybe soon we will be able to!

Flip a coin.

 

[Kerad]

...but it serves to illustrate the question further;

What of immortality?


Mortal man has every and the only reason there is to be good and do good; death. Life is all you get.

Look at what people who believe in immortality are willing to do. Suicide bombers believe in everlasting life. Hell, they get more stuff if they kill themselves and slaughter others in the process.

What will be our moral code if we're all immortal? What will right and wrong be based on?

I disagree. Suicide bombers believe not in everlasting life...but in being rewarded in their vision of "Heaven" after dying. One does not get to heaven without dying, theoretically.

I would guess that the non-religious among us offer a glimpse of how society may act if immortality becomes an option. Those who don't believe there is anything after death...at least not a "Heavan" or "Hell", anyways. What reason do these people have for living life as a good person if they don't believe they will have to answer for their actions at the pearly gates? The reason why the majority of them try to do "the right thing" is because it is, simply, the right (human) thing to do.

 

[Larry Gude]

Let's examine that...

Anyway, if there was something inherently evil or sinful about extending life, then we all owe our Amish neighbors a big effing apology.

...right there.

Extending life. How much? 5 years? 10? We already do that. What we're talking about is the ability to live much, much longer than we do. We very well may be talking about immortality. Why do most old people die? Lose their will to live. Tired of the aches, pains, the fatigue, the loss of mobility, autonomy. What if your organs and tendons and muscles and brain were all fit as a fiddle at 100? That's what we are talking about.

What then? What of a planet that has 3 and 4 and 500 year old people? 1,000? What of populations? Food and energy supplies? Will this new bio-technology be denied poor populations? Will we fight wars over it? Will rich countries be filled with very old people very un-interested in having children while very poor countries having nothing but young people? That's already started. What of when you can run off to Holland and get a complete body makeover instead of fixing a few crows feet?

 

[mAlice]

...right there.

Extending life. How much? 5 years? 10? We already do that. What we're talking about is the ability to live much, much longer than we do. We very well may be talking about immortality. Why do most old people die? Lose their will to live. Tired of the aches, pains, the fatigue, the loss of mobility, autonomy. What if your organs and tendons and muscles and brain were all fit as a fiddle at 100? That's what we are talking about.

What then? What of a planet that has 3 and 4 and 500 year old people? 1,000? What of populations? Food and energy supplies? Will this new bio-technology be denied poor populations? Will we fight wars over it? Will rich countries be filled with very old people very un-interested in having children while very poor countries having nothing but young people? That's already started. What of when you can run off to Holland and get a complete body makeover instead of fixing a few crows feet?

If you believe the bible, then you know that man at one time was not supposed to die. We brought death upon ourselves. And I think that pretty much answers your question.

Given the opportunity to live forever without the aches, pains and appearance of old age, I'd embrace it.

 

[Larry Gude]

Come on...

I disagree. Suicide bombers believe not in everlasting life...but in being rewarded in their vision of "Heaven" after dying. One does not get to heaven without dying, theoretically.

...and reconcile that; They don't believe in everlasting life but do believe in a reward.

"Here, Dumbazziz, when you push this button, you will be reveared by the living and will get some serious booty action in the great beyond, but, you'll be dead and won't be able to enjoy it. Now pay attention. We can only do this once...what? What? Where are you going? Las Vegas!?"

 

[vraiblonde]

If you believe the bible, then you know that man at one time was not supposed to die. We brought death upon ourselves.

That's actually a pretty good point.

We could make an interesting theological discussion about immortality. In giving us the capacity to create immortality, has God changed His mind and gone back to his original plan?

 

[vraiblonde]

They don't believe in everlasting life but do believe in a reward.

No. They, like most religious fundamentalists, do indeed believe in everlasting life. They just won't be living it on earth.

Think about it: what good is a reward if you're not alive to enjoy it?

 

[Kerad]

Maybe I don't really want to know
How your garden grows
I just want to fly
Lately did you ever feel the pain
In the morning rain
As it soaks it to the bone

Maybe I just want to fly
I want to live I don't want to die
Maybe I just want to breath
Maybe I just don't believe
Maybe you're the same as me
We see things they'll never see
You and I are gonna live forever

Maybe I don't really want to know
How your garden grows
I just want to fly
Lately did you ever feel the pain
In the morning rain
As it soaks it to the bone

Maybe I will never be
All the things that I want to be
But now is not the time to cry
Now's the time to find out why
I think you're the same as me
We see things they'll never see
You and I are gonna live forever
We're gonna live forever
Gonna live forever
Live forever
Forever


"Live Forever" ~Oasis

 

[Larry Gude]

Hold on...

I would guess that the non-religious among us offer a glimpse of how society may act if immortality becomes an option. Those who don't believe there is anything after death...at least not a "Heavan" or "Hell", anyways. What reason do these people have for living life as a good person if they don't believe they will have to answer for their actions at the pearly gates? The reason why the majority of them try to do "the right thing" is because it is, simply, the right (human) thing to do.

...you can play 'Holier than thou' atheist (I don't care who you are, that right there is funny) but the obvious reason of promoting an afterlife is to get people to behave while here on this earth, right?

That people take knowledge and education and come to the choice, over the many ages, that they will act right because of some sort of 'right' or 'human' thing to do is a distinction without a difference; it's still a faith, a belief. In this case, it happens to be yours.

Is limited time still not the basis for choices made in life, choices of behavior? Are you going to argue that a person who knows they will live forever will have the same basis for choices they make?

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh lookit!

Flip a coin.

...I won! You lose!

 

[Kerad]

No. They, like most religious fundamentalists, do indeed believe in everlasting life. They just won't be living it on earth.

Think about it: what good is a reward if you're not alive to enjoy it?

I think it's quite obvious that what we're referring to here is "life", as we physically exist now on Earth. Whatever you call what one (may or may not) "becomes" after this life ends and you go to Heaven or Hell...that's something quite different entirely.

Maybe.

 

[mAlice]

...I won! You lose!

I disagree. http://forums.somd.com/showpost.php?p=1631150&postcount=69

 

[Larry Gude]

I think...

No. They, like most religious fundamentalists, do indeed believe in everlasting life. They just won't be living it on earth.

Think about it: what good is a reward if you're not alive to enjoy it?

...we have a communication breakdown here.

He, Kerad, is suggesting, as I read him, that they don't believe in afterlife. I was restating it in an effort to get him to see what I see as a contridiction.

They clearly believe as that is the basis for their actions.

 

[mAlice]

I would guess that the non-religious among us offer a glimpse of how society may act if immortality becomes an option.

Very good point.

 

[Toxick]

Extending life. How much? 5 years? 10? We already do that. What we're talking about is the ability to live much, much longer than we do. We very well may be talking about immortality.

I think immortality is an unobtainable goal. When people start living 4-5-8 hundreds years, something will give. Perhaps the brain will simply shut down within it's healthy body after a certain time. Who knows?

But I do know one thing - people die.

Always have, and always will.

What then? What of a planet that has 3 and 4 and 500 year old people? 1,000? What of populations? Food and energy supplies?

I know one other thing about people and the planet earth.

They adapt.

I think the world is more than capable of handling more people. Way more than over-population doomcryers say. There is so much unused space out there that it's almost incomprehensible to the mind. Space that can be used to grow food and house people.