Forgiven

Radiant1

Soul Probe
A catholic believes that a good person, who does good things, who is kind and not cruel, who lives selflessly, even if they don't believe in god, can still make it to heaven. They just go through purgatory first.

It's not quite like that. Just to clarify, Catholics do believe salvation can be given to someone if TO NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN they have never heard the Gospel preached accordingly and have lived fully and completely by their conscience (whether it's a fully formed conscience or not is another matter), and if they do make it to purgatory it is expected to be a long, hard purge before they get to heaven. It's not just "Hey you've been good you're in". It may seem like a subtle nuance, but it makes a big difference. This is, of course, keeping in mind that it's believed there is a spark and longing for God inherent in every human being.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Now we're getting into tricky theological ground. Do I agree that there are things I find absolutely abhorrent and would never do? Yes. In that manner there are absolute lines I draw that I will not cross, no matter the situation.

Do I believe the universe gives a flying turd? No.

I stopped right here. You called this tricky theology then went on to wonder whether the universe cares. One has nothing to do with the other, yet you decided to insert it anyway. The correct THEOLOGICAL question is: Does GOD care?

There’s no reason to continue a discussion in which you seem incapable of at least sticking with the subject. You can’t even stay consistent in your own themes.
 

TheLibertonian

New Member
It's not quite like that. Just to clarify, Catholics do believe salvation can be given to someone if TO NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN they have never heard the Gospel preached accordingly and have lived fully and completely by their conscience (whether it's a fully formed conscience or not is another matter), and if they do make it to purgatory it is expected to be a long, hard purge before they get to heaven. It's not just "Hey you've been good you're in". It may seem like a subtle nuance, but it makes a big difference. This is, of course, keeping in mind that it's believed there is a spark and longing for God inherent in every human being.

A fair correction.
 

TheLibertonian

New Member
I stopped right here. You called this tricky theology then went on to wonder whether the universe cares. One has nothing to do with the other, yet you decided to insert it anyway. The correct THEOLOGICAL question is: Does GOD care.

There’s no reason to continue a discussion in which you seem incapable of at least sticking with the subject. You can’t even stay consistent in your own themes.


Theology - religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.

I wouldn't call what I have religion, but it's close enough that there's few other words. Would you prefer me to have called it "metaphysics"? Fine. Call it metaphysics.

Theology does not mean CHRISTIANITY. And my beliefs are systematic; they have a system that has developed over my lifetime and will continue developing.

And I did answer your question. I don't believe in a universal concept of good and evil.
 
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newnature

New Member
Christianity developed the notion of original sin.

So extreme are the psalmist’s guilt feeling that he sees himself as sinful even before birth.

Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos. It is the power of moral choice alone, that is Yahweh like and having that good and bad knowledge is no guarantee that one will choose or incline towards the good. The very action that brought Adam and Eve a Yahweh like awareness of their mortal autonomy, was an action that was taken in opposition to Yahweh.

Yahweh knows that, that human beings will become like Yahweh, knowing good and bad; it’s one of the things about Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. Evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior.
 

newnature

New Member
Cain is culpable, and for someone to be culpable of something, we have to assume some principle that they have violated. There seems to be in existence from the beginning of creation this universal moral law, and that is: Yahweh-endowed sanctity of human life. The fact that Yahweh has created humans in his own image, but Yahweh-endowed sanctity of human life is an assumption, and it’s the violation of the assumption which makes Cain culpable. 


Despite Yahweh’s warning to Cain, that it’s possible to master the urge to violence by an act of will. Yahweh says, “Sin couches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master.” The tension between settled areas, and the unsettled desert areas and desert life of the nomads. Abel is a keeper of sheep. He represents the nomadic pastoralist, unlike Cain who is the tiller of soil, so he represents more settled urban life. Yet Cain’s fatal and culpable refusal to reconcile himself to what Yahweh told him; Yahweh prefers the offering of Abel, and as a result Cain’s distressed and jealous to the point of murder. 


Yahweh’s reference of the offering of Abel valorized the free life of the nomadic pastoralist over urban existence. After the murder, Cain responds to a question Yahweh asked him, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” We are all of us our brothers’ keepers, and the strong implication that all homicide is in fact fratricide. Yahweh yields to Cain’s plea and protects him from the fate he inflicted on Abel. The man who could not tolerate Yahweh’s inscrutable grace, now benefits from it. Yet, the murderous first-born son of Adam, his offspring will not survive the flood.
 

newnature

New Member
Salvation is not doing; it is believing! It is counting what God believes to be true for you and about you, as true for you and about you. 


Our performance is not the source of our righteousness before God; the only righteousness God can recognize is our identity in Jesus Christ when it comes to mankind and mankind’s indwelling sin nature in the flesh. 


To believe that what you are doing and what you are restraining yourselves from doing is the way you are earning your righteous standing with God, you have got to put a lot of confidence in your flesh to do that; religiondumb is doing that! 


Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who are NOT walking after the faulty assumption that their righteousness is related to their performance, that was Israel’s problem. 


Those who are IN Jesus Christ are those who place no confidence in their flesh, but understand, as Paul understood, that in their flesh dwells no good thing. The sanctification that comes by way of being placed INTO Christ - joined to Christ - is identity truth. 


A sanctified identity IN Christ comes not as a result of behavior, it comes as a result of belief! God is not looking at how well we adhere to any standard. God is not looking at our production. God is not looking at our behavior in order to view us as being in favor with him. 


What a marvelous plan God had for us! God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off of the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy. God’s reconciliation to man is from God’s side only. 


God alone decided to make peace with man, while man is still very much ungodly, a sinner, and while man is an active enemy to God. This one-sided reconciliation on God’s part is self-evident proof of God’s superabundant love to man. 


As far as God is concerned, he loved man so much that he was willing to let his own son die for sinful man, and have his son pay all the penalties of their sins, forget their rebelliousness and overlook their hostility, while they were still sinners, still rebellious, and still hostile. 


God made up his mind to become completely reconciled to mankind before man made any signs of making peace with God. God has told the world through Paul’s teaching’s, that he has reconciled himself to them because of his love for them, and it was God alone who did this harmonious act; they have had nothing to do with it, all they have had to do is to receive the reconciliation that God has made with mankind. 


God has one-sidedly reconciled himself to mankind through what the death of his son accomplished; all sins and hostility are paid for as far as God is concerned. Many people involved in religion’s domain are dealing with God on the basis of probation, rather than salvation. 


Then God must make a decision in their minds, whether or not to save that individual. Their suitability for heaven depends upon their turning away from all of their sins. If they will simply dedicate themselves to no longer to sin, that is the idea. 


God testing over and over again the validity of that dedication. Then God will know if they are truly devoted to him, then he will be able to finally make a decision as to whether or not they are heaven worthy. That is the idea in and in most people’s minds; it is the idea being promoted by ministers of righteousness. 


That is probation, not salvation. God is not testing or proving people today, in order to make a final decision as to whether or not to save them, or to keep them saved. All the saving work that God could possibly do, he has already done through Christ. 


God now holds forth the reconciliation that Christ has accomplished, in his mind, offering man the choice to either accept or reject that gift of salvation. Appreciation based on the reality of salvation, not apprehension based on religion’s message of probation. 


If Satan can keep that glorious message of Paul hidden by blinding people’s eyes to the reality of reconciliation through a message that keeps sin on the table of God’s justice where that sin has already been put away. Many people are living in their minds today with probation rather than salvation. 


With Israel's earthly program being set aside, during this age of grace, no nationality enjoys special favor in the eyes of God; all must come alike to God today. God did not lift up the Gentiles, who had been without God, and put them on an equal or higher plain, than belonged to Israel. 


He concluded Israel in unbelief, as he had previously concluded the Gentiles in unbelief, both of them down on the same level, so that he might have mercy on all, and that is where it is today, according to Paul. It is man who needs to be reconciled to God, not the other way around. 


God is already reconciled to us, where our sins are concerned. It is not a sin issue, it is a son issue. What a marvelous plan Gods for us! God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off of the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy. 


Understanding the grace of God is an intricate part of the joy that should really be a part of every believer’s life. The grace of God has brought peace with God, is the foundation of every believer’s joy in this age. 


Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness. Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive. 


Justification is a legal term which changes the believing sinner’s standing before God, declaring us acquitted and accepted by God, with the guilt and penalty of our sins put away forever. Christ did not die to give us a reprieve, he did not die to give us temporary relief. 


The only reason God could say through Paul, “Grace and peace be unto you“ is because his son fully paid the price. So in the midst of Paul’s troubling circumstances, he is thanking God, he is thinking what God accomplished for him through Christ.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Salvation is not doing; it is believing!

Believing is doing something. It is still something requires effort, even if it's mental effort. And I don't think it's a one-time effort. It is an ongoing process. The rest of 'doing' should automatically follow, and not a term for achieving and maintaining salvation.

And for gee whiz... I think most folks (myself included) tend to just skip over really long posts.
 

newnature

New Member
Believers need not ever fear separation from God, our everlasting life with him is an absolute certainty. Physical death will not halt it, or hinder it in any way. The second death is never a threat or a possibility. Paul simply refused to allow things which were not expedient or wise to take control of him, he had the clear option to choose otherwise.


Believers need not ever fear a change in attitude from God toward us. The improper choices we make do not change the direction of God’s mind toward those who have been joined to his son, because he sees those believers IN his son. Never make the mistake when it comes to improper choices, that you can continue to make improper choices and face no consequences. 


We all too often plant one crop and then before we know it, the crop we have planted is growing up all around us to the extent that what we have planted can begin to get a strangle-hold on us. It happens to those who are believers and it happens to those who are unbelievers, if something comes up, it is because we have planted an improper choice somewhere, in many cases. 


Your relationship with God is not contingent upon the crops you plant and the choices you make. How much more secure could you be than to be joined to God’s son, that’s reigning in life, whether you realize it or appreciate it. Reigning in life means much more than the ability to make correct choices in our lives. 


As important as it is that we make correct choices, reigning in life over sin means much, much, more than making proper choices. Paul was reigning in life from a practical perspective, because those who receive the gift of God, do in fact, reign in life. But, that does not mean that improper choices have no earthly consequences, they certainly do. While they will not affect your salvation, they can indeed wreak havoc in your life.
 
Today people think they have to ask God to forgive them for the sins that God is no longer charging to their account in the first place. Ministers of righteousness would have people believe God is not totally reconciled in his mind. The great usurper and his fellow usurpers want to keep sin on the table of God’s justice today, as much in the age of grace as he has in the other ages.

This entire thread is nothing but Bovine Excrement.
 
Paul knew that the defense mechanism resident within the pride nature of the human heart would be instant in it’s response to protest the accusation of wrath worthiness.

Still bovine excrement. And bloviating endlessly about it will not change anything. Your god exists only in your mind, same as Paul. Until you realize you have been duped, scammed, lied to, brainwashed...most likely from childhood...you'll be no different than your Muslim cousins.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Still bovine excrement.

Tell me something... when you walk in the field and see bovine excrement, what do you do? Do you run over to it and yell out "bovine excrement!", or do you just avoid it and ignore it? If this is really a bunch of bovine excrement to you, why do you waste your time with it?

Or...................... you fear bovine excrement. :eyebrow: You're afraid bovine excrement is going to take over all our minds.
 

newnature

New Member
Still bovine excrement. And bloviating endlessly about it will not change anything. Your god exists only in your mind, same as Paul. Until you realize you have been duped, scammed, lied to, brainwashed...most likely from childhood...you'll be no different than your Muslim cousins.

Paul also knew the human heart would not only be quick, but that it would be ingenious in the pleas that it would offer as to why we are not wrath-worthy.
 
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