Gay indoctrination...

[Larry Gude]

That's great...

I have a cousin who is gay. I love her dearly and she is the kindest and loving that anyone could possibly be. I didn't need some course in school to teach me that. I simply responded to her nature as a human; as most people would.

When I lived in PG county neighbors on each side of me were gay. Great people I call my friends.

...personally, gays get on my nerves after awhile.

So, do they think the way you do about all this? Do they think things are better for gays these days at the expense of everyone else? Do they think kids being taught a few things about homosexuals are better or worse off?

I'd be curious what they think of all this.

 

[PsyOps]

...you have a health class in 7th grade? What did they teach you? How old were you? Did they use words like 'vagina' and 'penis' and 'condom' and 'birth control pill'? Did they show you the baby being born movie?

Did any of this suddenly make you...a heterosexual...by any chance? Or indoctrinate you to the 'straight' lifestyle?

I don't think this has anything to do with whether the teachings will cause someone to become gay. It has to do with a school system telling kids they have to accept such behavior like homosexuality as normal when it very well may be contrary to that child's raising by their parents. Like I asked before, can you imagine a kids growing with their parents teaching them that having sex with the same sex is wrong then having the teacher, several years later, telling that child his parents are wrong?

 

[Larry Gude]

Is that what they're doing?

I don't think this has anything to do with whether the teachings will cause someone to become gay. It has to do with a school system telling kids they have to accept such behavior like homosexuality as normal when it very well may be contrary to that child's raising by their parents. Like I asked before, can you imagine a kids growing with their parents teaching them that having sex with the same sex is wrong then having the teacher, several years later, telling that child his parents are wrong?

"Hi Kids! I'm here to tell you that being gay is right and being hetero is wrong!"

Is that what happens?

I've asked before what 'accept means? I mean, what happens now? Do kids patrol the neighborhood making sure no gays step foot in the yard or out of doors?

 

[This_person]

...Ok.




I really don't know what to say in response.

You sound like a 10th grade biologoy student.

"So what?"

Or maybe a 10th grade Brit Lit student;

"So what?"


Have you not followed ANY of the objections to homosexuals? Deviants. Un-natural. Against Gods will. Perverts. Child molesters.

I know, I know...

"So what?"

I've followed that there are idiots and bigots out there of every stripe. That's not the point of what we're trying to discuss (or, if it is, I've been having the whole wrong discussion ).

The point on the question of the thread is whether the school board should have the only say in what is taught. The arguement at this point is on how teaching homosexuality as an acceptable, respectable thing upsets enough people in the community. This is where my "so what" attitude comes into play. It doesn't really matter what the objectionable piece of education is, it matters who has the right to determine if it's objectionable. There are parents/taxpayers/citizens/voters out there that are very against it for whatever their reasons are. It's not the state BOE's role to tell those people they can't voice their opinion, and can't petition them for redress of this grievence.

Like I said, I see nothing wrong with teaching that it's out there, and that it is both illegal and wrong to discriminate or harrass anyone because of it. Going beyond that is going into what people seem to believe is their own turf with their own kids. Don't go there.

I got upset because the argument always becomes, whenever talking about the subject homosexuals, whether it's right or wrong, or genetics vs. choice, or what have you. That's not the point of any of this, I don't think. Quite frankly, in my opinion it's morally wrong for anyone to judge anyone else (in the morality of their actions, not a court of law) if they're Christian, as that role belongs to God, not man (kinda what Jesus was saying with the "first stone" comment, in my opinion).

But, all of this off the point, which is the point of this post. It doesn't matter if homosexuality exists (thus, the "so what" rant). This is a question of state's vs. parents' rights to educating their children.

 

[PsyOps]

...personally, gays get on nerves after awhile.

So, do they think the way you do about all this? Do they think things are better for gays these days at the expense of everyone else? Are gays hurting our children?

We're skewing off into a different discussion here. But I'll go there... No I don't believe gays are hurting our children. I understand your sanity check here and I appreciate it. I just happen to not trust our schools for this kind of thing.

As far as things being better for them, I'm not gay so I honestly can't answer that. I know they have been asking for certain rights like marriage, co-ownership, adoption, and inheritance. I think the funny thing about this is the legal system can't even agree on these things and can be interpreted as a certain level of intolerance (depending on who you talk to). If we have this level of intolerance in our legal system (a group of adults) then how do we really expect our schools to teach it?

 

[kmw1123]

People keep crying "Let us raise our kids!", but we have people on here saying that drug use is ok. There are parents that say its ok to hate and harass people because they are different. There are parents that don't care if their kids do their homework and get good grades. There are parents who don't care that their kid is a general pain in the butt and disrespects everyone. Yes, the school system may not be perfect and there is room for improvement, but the same goes for parents.

 

[kmw1123]

No doubt. Totally not my point. I was trying to say that, from their own perspective they see their behavior as normal. It feels normal to them. Not how they view each other. I'm quite certain a gay person has no tolerance for people that have sex with geese. Now doesn't that just throw a monkey wrench into this "let's teach each other tolerance" thing.

But there is one huge difference... Homosexuality will not get you thrown in jail or fined. Having sex with children and animal will.

 

[This_person]

"Hi Kids! I'm here to tell you that being gay is right and being hetero is wrong!"
Is that what happens?

I've asked before what 'accept means? I mean, what happens now? Do kids patrol the neighborhood making sure no gays step foot in the yard or out of doors?

You added to, and thus substantially changed, his argument.

I told you what the difference between accept and tolerate are. I see no reason to teach acceptance of anything that falls under the parents' role to teach. Tolerance, OF COURSE. Acceptance, not so much.

 

[This_person]

People keep crying "Let us raise our kids!", but we have people on here saying that drug use is ok. There are parents that say its ok to hate and harass people because they are different. There are parents that don't care if their kids do their homework and get good grades. There are parents who don't care that their kid is a general pain in the butt and disrespects everyone. Yes, the school system may not be perfect and there is room for improvement, but the same goes for parents.

Yep.

And, who gets to decide what "improvement" is? For me and my house, my wife and I do. For you and yours, you and your fiance do. For Chuck and Larry, they do. For the school, we all do as a group. People have the right to have those beliefs, and it's not up to the school, nor the state, to "fix" their beliefs.

Your first sentence, though, makes it sound like you think the parents should not be allowed to decide how to raise their kids, because you disagree with their beliefs.

 

[This_person]

We're skewing off into a different discussion here. But I'll go there... No I don't believe gays are hurting our children. I understand your sanity check here and I appreciate it. I just happen to not trust our schools for this kind of thing.

As far as things being better for them, I'm not gay so I honestly can't answer that. I know they have been asking for certain rights like marriage, co-ownership, adoption, and inheritance. I think the funny thing about this is the legal system can't even agree on these things and can be interpreted as a certain level of intolerance (depending on who you talk to). If we have this level of intolerance in our legal system (a group of adults) then how do we really expect our schools to teach it?

However, other than the terminology, the legal system already provides for all of these things. Co-ownership already is available, adoption, inheritance (write a will!), medical issues (write a living will!). It's all already there.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

You added to, and thus substantially changed, his argument.

I told you what the difference between accept and tolerate are. I see no reason to teach acceptance of anything that falls under the parents' role to teach. Tolerance, OF COURSE. Acceptance, not so much.

...but I keep asking what does 'acceptance' mean in context of what we're talking about? Does the school make the kids take a test where the correct answer is that the student now thinks everyone should be gay or that some people are gay? Or it's OK? And what does 'OK' mean?

Does the school make the student accept, in their heart, that homosexuality is not deviant or abnormal or queer or unusual? How do they do that?

Tolerance would be no gay bashing either verbally or physically, right?

For instance; I don't 'accept' Islam. I think it is a troubled faith full of people who either won't stand up for it or, worse, are. But, I'd have a beer with a Muslim. I wouldn't cross the street to avoid them. I could be friends.

I 'accept' Christianity. I believe it is full of people who I think make the world, by and large, a better place for Americans.

How would a school, measurably, make me accept or not either one let alone same sex relationships?

So, again, what the hell is 'acceptance'?

 

[PsyOps]

"Hi Kids! I'm here to tell you that being gay is right and being hetero is wrong!"

Is that what happens?

I've asked before what 'accept means? I mean, what happens now? Do kids patrol the neighborhood making sure no gays step foot in the yard or out of doors?

Oh for crying out loud Larry, you're getting desparate. I don't want the schools teaching about any of this stuff from a tolerance standpoint. I'm not implying they shouldn't be taught it, I just feel this needs to come from the parents.

I believe kids tend to not pay attention to this stuff anyway unless you throw it in their faces. And that's just what this will do. Teacher starts talking about gay people (which is what this discussion is specifically about), next thing you know kids are looking around the room trying to figure out who is gay and who is not. Or maybe not. Maybe they will just do like they do with me... In one ear and out the other.

 

[Larry Gude]

I long ago agree...

The point on the question of the thread is whether the school board should have the only say in what is taught.

...that the school board was way out of line to not allow debate and dissent. This should be debated, fully.

 

[PsyOps]

However, other than the terminology, the legal system already provides for all of these things. Co-ownership already is available, adoption, inheritance (write a will!), medical issues (write a living will!). It's all already there.

I've talked to my cousin about this and she said it's not just as easy as writing a will since, in many instances there is no real legal connection between the two (like a marriage). So inheritance leaves it open for other family members to cause problems. Since there are no real legal marriages (in most states) when a separation occurs there is no real basis for demanding things like child support or alimony.

 

[This_person]

...but I keep asking what does 'acceptance' mean in context of what we're talking about? Does the school make the kids take a test where the correct answer is that the student now thinks everyone should be gay or that some people are gay? Or it's OK? And what does 'OK' mean?

Does the school make the student accept, in their heart, that homosexuality is not deviant or abnormal or queer or unusual? How do they do that?

Tolerance would be no gay bashing either verbally or physically, right?

For instance; I don't 'accept' Islam. I think it is a troubled faith full of people who either won't stand up for it or, worse, are. But, I'd have a beer with a Muslim. I wouldn't cross the street to avoid them. I could be friends.

I 'accept' Christianity. I believe it is full of people who I think make the world, by and large, a better place for Americans.

How would a school, measurably, make me accept or not either one let alone same sex relationships?

So, again, what the hell is 'acceptance'?

You are 100% correct in your question, in that it is all in the phrasing or terminology. Three (or, five by the new math of 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5) classes that have titles like "Respect and Empathy for...." sound like they are going beyond "no bashing of". Other than the dictionary definitions I already posted, and the fuzzy gray area we're discussing, I don't know how to make it any more clear.

And, that's the substance of the whole argument. Does KMW or her peers know the phrasology (is that a word?) I want used when discussing this with my kid, or you with yours, or Psy's with his? I doubt it. And, if we don't trust the state, via the writers of the curriculum, via the teachers, to phrase and handle it the way we want, we probably don't want the class taught. Five minutes of "don't discriminate or harass" would be just as effective. 4 sessions of 45 minutes on "the plight of homosexuals" (basically) is not within the realm of the state. (the last one being a video demonstration of how to properly put on and use a condom)

Yes, KMW, we can opt out. But, why should we have to? Make it an afterschool club like the ones you told me about before. That way everybody gets what they want out of it.

 

[This_person]

I've talked to my cousin about this and she said it's not just as easy as writing a will since, in many instances there is no real legal connection between the two (like a marriage). So inheritance leaves it open for other family members to cause problems. Since there are no real legal marriages (in most states) when a separation occurs there is no real basis for demanding things like child support or alimony.

I know that, thanks to Clint Eastwood and his chippie, "palimony" exists, and has great precedence (sp?). It's true that families can contest wills. But, ask Anna Nicole Smith (before she died) if being married helped much with that... there's always room for legal actions. it just puts 'em on the same footing with the rest of us.

It's not perfect, but it's really no less perfect (in my opinion) than it is for anyone else.

 

[kmw1123]

I went back and looked at the topics for the lessons. Negative effects of stereotyping and harassment, positive results of tolerance and respect (8th grade), how to respond to differences in sexual orientation (8th grade), vocabulary for human sexuality and laws the schools must follow to prevent harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation (10th grade), and challenges student may face based on sexual orientation (10th grade). The condom video doesn't count because that counts for both heterosexuals and homosexuals (excluding lesbians). I'm not really seeing how that is going against anyone's morals. It's not putting down anyone's beliefs that being gay is wrong. It is, however, helping kids understand what could happen if they harass or discriminate. It is helping them understand laws that the school has to follow in dealing with that. It is helping them understand what others may go through and experience when dealing with being different. No where do I see them telling students that their parents' teachings were wrong.

 

[This_person]

I went back and looked at the topics for the lessons. Negative effects of stereotyping and harassment, positive results of tolerance and respect (8th grade), how to respond to differences in sexual orientation (8th grade), vocabulary for human sexuality and laws the schools must follow to prevent harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation (10th grade), and challenges student may face based on sexual orientation (10th grade). The condom video doesn't count because that counts for both heterosexuals and homosexuals (excluding lesbians). I'm not really seeing how that is going against anyone's morals. It's not putting down anyone's beliefs that being gay is wrong. It is, however, helping kids understand what could happen if they harass or discriminate. It is helping them understand laws that the school has to follow in dealing with that. It is helping them understand what others may go through and experience when dealing with being different. No where do I see them telling students that their parents' teachings were wrong.

good research. What are the titles of those courses again?

 

[This_person]

I went back and looked at the topics for the lessons. Negative effects of stereotyping and harassment, positive results of tolerance and respect (8th grade), how to respond to differences in sexual orientation (8th grade), vocabulary for human sexuality and laws the schools must follow to prevent harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation (10th grade), and challenges student may face based on sexual orientation (10th grade). The condom video doesn't count because that counts for both heterosexuals and homosexuals (excluding lesbians). I'm not really seeing how that is going against anyone's morals. It's not putting down anyone's beliefs that being gay is wrong. It is, however, helping kids understand what could happen if they harass or discriminate. It is helping them understand laws that the school has to follow in dealing with that. It is helping them understand what others may go through and experience when dealing with being different. No where do I see them telling students that their parents' teachings were wrong.

Oh, yeah, and how does this fit into the concept that parents don't trust the state to decide? That, if they don't like the POTENTIAL concept of a non-mandated course, they (the parents) can get rid of it through addressing the school board?

 

[kmw1123]

We can argue this all day, but what is going to happen if and when it goes to court and the board of ed wins? I don't teach sex ed, so it's not going to bother me if it doesn't win, but what are all the parents who have a huge issue with it going to do?