bcp
In My Opinion
in the end it does not matter what you think or how you feel.
besides, that gay man will want nothing to do with you.
Gays in the military...
- Thread starter Larry Gude
- Start date
in the end it does not matter what you think or how you feel.
besides, that gay man will want nothing to do with you.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
All anyone need do is listen to what Gates actually said. He could not have been any clearer;
Given what they deem to be proper time to plan and prepare and implement, given proper time, disruptions will be MINIMIZED. Not eliminated.
He really impressed me as one heck of a public servant.
PsyOps
Pixelated
I've spent too much time in and around the military to know how they can screw things up policy-wise. This will really be one of the first big policy changes since they integrated blacks back in 1948. That Executive Order wasn’t implemented very well. It took decades to develop policies that addressed all of the racial issues that still exist today.
I’m not saying it wont work, I’m just hoping they do it wisely. Everyone deserves the opportunity to serve, and do it without hiding and with dignity. But everyone in our military deserves to live in environments that are without intimidation or harassment. And gays are just as capable of harassment as anyone else. When you allow gays to be open, some will be very open. Most will serve with honor and dignity; I’m certain of that. But there will always be those few on both sides that will cause problems.
The military will need to develop more than just strict policies on keeping people in line; they will also need to make sure facilities accommodate everyone’s needs and to maintain good order and discipline. This is not an easy task for gays. You really have to think about how gays will be placed in places like basic training, barracks, and other common facilities. These things could cost an exorbitant amount of money. Anyone that is pretending that throwing gay men in the same showers and hetero men wont cause problems are fooling themselves. You have one incident of a gay guy coming on to a straight guy in a shower that results in a death and the whole game is off. The news will read what a dumb idea the whole thing was.
awpitt
Main Streeter
Yes it is.
You're missing the point. Seperate facilities are provided for seperate genders, not to seperate beefy from skinny, etc. The orientation thing is a question of conduct which is an issue now with heteros. Sexual harassment, assult, rape, etc. are violations of the UCMJ regardless of a person's orientation.
awpitt
Main Streeter
I can't explain it any more simply than I alrady have. If you don't get it, I can't help that.
Most would hope that you don't allow your sons and daughters to shower together or go to the bathroom at the same time or sleep in the same beds. My kids use the same bathroom, just not at the same time. Your analogy is a stretch. Comparing siblings growing up together to adults serving in the military? Totally off base.
MMDad
Lem Putt
When's the last time you went to sea? They have integrated women onto combatant ships. Went pretty smoothly. In fact, the only real problems existed before they integrated women, and since they've still done nothing about that problem it still exists.
Same with gays. The problems they will have are no different than the problems they already have. There just won't be as much time and effort wasted prosecuting people for their behavior away from work.
Tell me, did you serve with any gays? Or did you just pretend you didn't?
glhs837
Power with Control
So, now the official party line is that we separate men and women solely based on the shape of their bodies, and that separation has nothing to do with sex?
My god, you can all swallow a helluva whopper in support of this thing cant you? If that's what you maintain, all sense has left the room, and there's no point in continuing the discussion. You have officially jumped the shark once you say that.
We separate the sexes becuase of sex, its that simple. Making people share space with folks who might view them as sexual partners is not socially acceptable. Not becuase one gender sits and one stand to pee.
My god, you can all swallow a helluva whopper in support of this thing cant you? If that's what you maintain, all sense has left the room, and there's no point in continuing the discussion. You have officially jumped the shark once you say that.
We separate the sexes becuase of sex, its that simple. Making people share space with folks who might view them as sexual partners is not socially acceptable. Not becuase one gender sits and one stand to pee.
bcp
In My Opinion
So, now the official party line is that we separate men and women solely based on the shape of their bodies, and that separation has nothing to do with sex?
My god, you can all swallow a helluva whopper in support of this thing cant you? If that's what you maintain, all sense has left the room, and there's no point in continuing the discussion. You have officially jumped the shark once you say that.
We separate the sexes becuase of sex, its that simple. Making people share space with folks who might view them as sexual partners is not socially acceptable. Not becuase one gender sits and one stand to pee.
Well there went my plans.
I was sorta hoping to go back in, I figure that since I quit lifting weights 20 years ago, and the pecks have turned to moobs, I could have got some living space with the women.
You sir, have busted my bubble.
libertytyranny
Dream Stealer
My point was that if there are already gays, being able to serve openly will not change a thing. If you already shower next to a gay guy who fantasizes about you they will still do it. If you sleep int he same room with a gay guy, he will still bne sleeping there. Chances are you already know who is gay anyway, and DADT being gone is not going to change your average military guy into some flamer and just suprise the heck out of you. gays serving openly will not start gay harrassment..it will not dissolve the world into nothingness, my guess is it will continue to operate much in the same way. Most gays really don't want to announce their gayness for a bunch of fit men to hassle them about.
If you already shower with a gay man..how in the world will it be different now? The only thing that will change is that if you see him entering the gay club, you can't rat him out and have him fired. That's the only difference.
If you already shower with a gay man..how in the world will it be different now? The only thing that will change is that if you see him entering the gay club, you can't rat him out and have him fired. That's the only difference.
pixiegirl
Cleopatra Jones
So, now the official party line is that we separate men and women solely based on the shape of their bodies, and that separation has nothing to do with sex?
My god, you can all swallow a helluva whopper in support of this thing cant you? If that's what you maintain, all sense has left the room, and there's no point in continuing the discussion. You have officially jumped the shark once you say that.
We separate the sexes becuase of sex, its that simple. Making people share space with folks who might view them as sexual partners is not socially acceptable. Not becuase one gender sits and one stand to pee.
And you can be in denial about the fact that we seperate based on gender and not sex all the time. Childen in schools have different gender bathrooms and locker rooms not because we're worried about 5 year olds sexing it up all over the place but because they're differnt. Malls have seperate restrooms based on gender. Gyms have seperate locker rooms and showers based on gender. When you're at the mall and have to take a leak are you going to run out of the rest room screaming because an obvious flamer walks in? No, you're going to act like a grownup and take a leak. Are you going to start using the womens restroom because you're scared a gay man may be in the mens?
n0n1m0us3
why so serious
Bathrooms and gyms are separated because of gender, not sexuality. Hence the lack of urinals in the ladies room and the lack of tampon dispensers in the mens room.
Soldiers are already showering and berthing with homosexuals, they will be doing the same tomorrow and forever more. Some people just need a reality check and get over their stupid prejudices. If a man isn't man enough to take showering in the company of a homosexual he probably isn't man enough to serve.
glhs837
Power with Control
LT, basing what will happen when its openly allowed on what has happened when its banned is not a valid comparison, I dont think. And again, you avoid the question of male/female and go off into the surprise buttsecks realm. That really isn't the issue.
pixie, we separate children based on gender because we are teaching them how it will be in the adult world, when sex is a factor. If I am at the mall and a homosexual comes in, doesnt change my behavior at all. But I have the freedom to choose to use another bathroom if it did. Would I have a complaint in most folks eyes if a woman came into the mens room? Sure would. Why is that?
Try an experiment, next time you are at the mall, use the mens room, see if the men behavior changes. Bet it does. If you can find male volunteer, ask him to use the ladies room. Think the ladies might change their behavior?
Why is it okay to require a hetero to share spaces with someone who might view them sexually, but not women? Again, we keep sliding to the side, making arguments about other things, but not that basic point. You can tell the female servicemembers all day long that the males in question are disciplined, and wont make any untoward advances, think it would make a difference? Hell, its only innies and outies, no reason we cant make it all gender/orientation neutral, right. Unisex everything. No problems.
pixie, we separate children based on gender because we are teaching them how it will be in the adult world, when sex is a factor. If I am at the mall and a homosexual comes in, doesnt change my behavior at all. But I have the freedom to choose to use another bathroom if it did. Would I have a complaint in most folks eyes if a woman came into the mens room? Sure would. Why is that?
Try an experiment, next time you are at the mall, use the mens room, see if the men behavior changes. Bet it does. If you can find male volunteer, ask him to use the ladies room. Think the ladies might change their behavior?
Why is it okay to require a hetero to share spaces with someone who might view them sexually, but not women? Again, we keep sliding to the side, making arguments about other things, but not that basic point. You can tell the female servicemembers all day long that the males in question are disciplined, and wont make any untoward advances, think it would make a difference? Hell, its only innies and outies, no reason we cant make it all gender/orientation neutral, right. Unisex everything. No problems.
H
HouseCat
Guest
I had to share toilets with men overseas. Not the shower, thank the stars... guys are just nasty. lol I think that's why they should keep them separate.
Bathrooms and gyms are separated because of gender, not sexuality. Hence the lack of urinals in the ladies room and the lack of tampon dispensers in the mens room.
Soldiers are already showering and berthing with homosexuals, they will be doing the same tomorrow and forever more. Some people just need a reality check and get over their stupid prejudices. If a man isn't man enough to take showering in the company of a homosexual he probably isn't man enough to serve.
On the gay issue.. I could careless who I'm serving with as long as they don't shove the acceptance of their issues down my throat. Do your job=good evaluation from me. That's all I care about.
bcp
In My Opinion
are you implying that there will be no lesbians coming out in the ranks?
awpitt
Main Streeter
I had to share toilets with men overseas. Not the shower, thank the stars... guys are just nasty. lol I think that's why they should keep them separate.
On the gay issue.. I could careless who I'm serving with as long as they don't shove the acceptance of their issues down my throat. Do your job=good evaluation from me. That's all I care about.
...and that's the way it should be. Unfortunately, there are some who are sexually insecure enough that a homosexual in their presence is viewed as some sort of threat.
.
pixiegirl
Cleopatra Jones
I went to plenty of concerts in my younger days and have used the mens room many times opposed to waiting in line for the ladies room. You know what happens when a woman walks in the mens room? The men make an effort to cover their stuff. I'm certain it's because I don't have a wanker and has nothing to do with sex or sexuality. The same reason my young boys cover themselves around their step sisters but not around other boys.