Gaza pullout

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
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Ken King said:
I should rename that smilie "kenking" because that's you all over. :razz:

Yeah, those damn international laws and agreements, like the UN Charter that member countries are bound to adhere to, are so emotional and not based on civility or how the nations have agreed to interact. What the hell was I thinking?
I have no idea what you're thinking because I hope the UN charter doesn't condone suicide bombings of civilians. Although it wouldn't surprise me, since that whole organization does nothing but promote and appease terrorism.

Are suicide bombings your idea of "civility"? And is that how the nations agreed to interact?
 

tomchamp

New Member
Ken King said:
Please check your facts. There is a big difference between a "friendly fire" incident and what happened with the USS Liberty.
Yes and the Canadians where conducting a life fire exercise that know one knew about...F-16 pilots thaught they where being fired upon...and got permission to take them out!
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
vraiblonde said:
I should rename that smilie "kenking" because that's you all over. :razz:
Just as the :moon: while somewhat like you doesn't quite do complete justice. :lol:


I have no idea what you're thinking because I hope the UN charter doesn't condone suicide bombings of civilians. Although it wouldn't surprise me, since that whole organization does nothing but promote and appease terrorism.

Are suicide bombings your idea of "civility"? And is that how the nations agreed to interact?
How does saying that Israeli occupation and colonization of illegally obtained territory in violation of international law condone the criminal acts of others? Never have I even hinted at such a thing. You seem to have been developing your Carville twist over the months. Pretty soon I suspect the DNC will want you for their chairperson. :elaine:
 
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smc33

New Member
I posted no facts, and niether did i say they were the same type of incident. You infered that. I merely said that just because one country's military killed (thats what it came down to) someone from another country's military, then that should not cause endless resentment. Both happened accidently or out of misunderstanding, and both ended the same. They were regrettable errors.

However they are more similar than you make them seem.
If you would please explain how an American fighter pilot targeting a Canadian training session without recognizing it is of a whole totally different realm as the Israelis attacking the Liberty without realizing it was an American ship. I do however acknowlege that these two incidents are of totally different magnitudes.
In Afghanistan, the pilot thought that he was receiving ground fire so he dropped a bomb, even though officials told him it was not necessary. In Israel they had been receiving fire from sea, assumingly a Egyptian ship. The US even stated that they had no ships in the vicinity, the Israelis attacked a ship that they felt could be a threat or even could have been the one that had opened fire. It all came down to communication. The Canadian Military may have failed to fully imform the US Air Force that they would be doing training drills, and the failure of communication between command and the Liberty to keep it out of the water around Israel.
 
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Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
smc33 said:
I posted no facts, and niether did i say they were the same type of incident. You infered that. I merely said that just because one country's military killed (thats what it came down to) someone from another country's military, then that should not cause endless resentment. Both happened accidently or out of misunderstanding, and both ended the same. They were regrettable errors.

However they are more similar than you make them seem.
If you would please explain how an American fighter pilot targeting a Canadian training session without recognizing it is of a whole totally different realm as the Israelis attacking the Liberty without realizing it was an American ship. I do however acknowlege that these two incidents are of totally different magnitudes.
In Afghanistan, the pilot thought that he was receiving ground fire so he dropped a bomb, even though officials told him it was not necessary. In Israel they had been receiving fire from sea, assumingly a Egyptian ship. The US even stated that they had no ships in the vicinity, the Israelis attacked a ship that they felt could be a threat or even could have been the one that had opened fire. It all came down to communication. The Canadian Military may have failed to fully imform the US Air Force that they would be doing training drills, and the failure of communication between command and the Liberty to keep it out of the water around Israel.
If you bothered to check the facts relating to the two incidents you would become aware of the differences and why animosity is felt by many Americans towards Israel. One was an error and one was a deliberate assault. Care to guess which was which as I doubt you care enough to find out for sure?
 

smc33

New Member
okay, that is all a matter of perspective and opinion. Of course some Israelis and some Americans see the incident totally differently. I obviously was not there so I will not therefore take sides on it.

And I feel that i did not post in ignorance, so I do not see why you use a condescending tone. I respect everything you have to say and everyone is entitle to their opinion.
 
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Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
smc33 said:
okay, that is all a matter of perspective and opinion. Of course some Israelis and some Americans see the incident totally differently. I obviously was not there so I will not therefore take sides on it.

And I feel that i did not post in ignorance, so I do not see why you use a condescending tone. I respect everything you have to say and everyone is entitle to their opinion.
But you have taken sides, you called it an accident. Do yourself a favor and just "Google" USS Liberty (or click here). Read what is there for yourself. Form your own opinion as to what is fact or fiction.
 

smc33

New Member
I have read the war crimes site, as well as others that are from the Israeli side. There is not much of a debate here now, so I am just going to agree to disagree. Some Canadians could feel that incidents involving "friendly fire" were not accidents.... yet again perspective.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
It doesn't matter where one stands...

...in regards to the Israel/Palestinian conflict, not now.

There are FAR to many Jews in the West Bank, that will stay as it is as will Jerusalem.

But now we get to see how the Palestinians conduct themselves in what they call their land without any ability to blame the Jews one way or another.

We'll see what we'll see in, say 5 years or so. Then 10.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
...in regards to the Israel/Palestinian conflict, not now.

There are FAR to many Jews in the West Bank, that will stay as it is as will Jerusalem.

But now we get to see how the Palestinians conduct themselves in what they call their land without any ability to blame the Jews one way or another.

We'll see what we'll see in, say 5 years or so. Then 10.
Exactly, hopefully this movement initiated by Sharon will get some good results and help halt the madness of recent years (no doubt that Arafat's death will help a lot too).
 

vraiblonde

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Larry Gude said:
We'll see what we'll see in, say 5 years or so. Then 10.
Yeah, yeah...then 20, then 30, then 40. :rolleyes: The Palestinians are like the Moveon.org crowd - they will NEVER be satisfied until their enemies are all dead. Doesn't matter that they make their own problems, they will insist that they are victims of some plot.

:rolleyes:
 

vraiblonde

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Oh me, oh my!

Ken King said:
Dang, I sure hate it when I discover that I have been wrong about something and have to eat a big old mouthful of crow. But being the human I am it seems I’ve done it again and thanks to the help of FromTexas, whose debate resulted in my digging deeper into the matter then I had previously done, I will be modifying my position as to the plight of the Palestinians. As most of you know I had for a very long time been of the mindset that Israel was illegally occupying Palestinian territory. But after much research and evaluation of the factual information freely available on the wonderful World Wide Web I must now have a shift in my approach and thinking as it relates to this continued conflict in the Middle East.

The key point of this transition is focused on the pre-existing agreements and arrangements prior to the 1947 Partition Plan. I must step further back in time seeking the legal control for that region because in every essence UN Resolution 181 is null and void because there was never any acceptance by the Arab world as to the creation of two states within the defined portion of the areas as was identified in Resolution 181. Because of the Arab nations vehement rejection to accept that plan they basically left themselves under the authority of the British Mandate which was the last, and more importantly, the rightful and legal controlling accord dealing with this matter. Compounding my previous mistaken beliefs were the acts taken as control was transferred from the British via the League of Nations to the newly founded United Nations and UN Resolution 181. Had the Arabs accepted the proposal they would be in the right, but that isn’t how it happened..

It was the UN themselves that made my decision to switch such an easy choice. Under the UN charter it states in Article 80, “nothing in this Chapter shall be construed in or of itself to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments to which Members of the United Nations may respectively be parties.”

Here is a little background to help clarify my shift of position. The area falling under the Mandate was initially proposed in November 1917 (confirmed by the League of Nations in July 1922, but didn’t actually come into operation until September 1923) and included all of current day Israel, Lebanon, Palestine and what we now call Jordan (at the time of the Mandate the area was known as Trans-Jordan). The sole purpose for the area was to establish a homeland for the Jews. This was made very clear by the League of Nations and by a separate Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United States (we weren’t a member of the League of Nation). Shortly after the concept of the Mandate (1921) it was modified as the British authority parceled off roughly three-fourths of the area to Arabs for the creation of a new Arab protectorate (now Jordan) and Jews were barred from owning or occupying any territory east of the Jordan River. In 1923 the area of the Golan Heights was ceded to French Syria and again Jews were barred from that area. The southern part of the Mandate was eventually declared as an open area because of the fact that there were no Jewish or Arab settlements in the desert and the area was sparsely inhabited by bands of roaming Bedouins.

Upon the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel they were immediately recognized by the United States (something shy of 15 minutes after Truman was advised he formally recognized them as a sovereign nation) and thus the last established international instrument was the British Mandate of the 1920s. When Israel entered as a member of the UN in 1949 it did so not as a nation established by the Partition Plan but as the fruition of the British Mandate (because the Partition Plan was never agreed to by the contracting parties).

Once Israel declared independence they were immediately attacked by surrounding Arab nations. With the war of 1948 concluded the remaining portion of the Mandate was divided along the lines of the cease fire, which was now just under 7 percent of the original area encompassed by the proposed Mandate with the West Bank falling under Jordanian control and the Gaza strip coming under Egyptian control and the tiny morsel of remaining territory became Israel. In 1967 Israel regained these areas that under the only legitimate controlling agreement had been occupied by Egypt and Jordan since 1948. Thus the West Bank and the Gaza strips are legally and rightfully Israeli territory as defined by that only legitimate agreement, the British Mandate. As such it is now my belief and more complete understanding that Israel is justified in controlling that entire region including the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Those claiming to be Palestinian are actually non-Jewish-Israelis or Arab-Israelis and should be subject to Israeli authority.

I think that the UN needs to reassess their view on who is the legitimate territorial authority and only use those agreements that have been accepted and confirmed and not rely upon those that they would like to see as controlling the issue. By doing this it would seem more appropriate to include the Arab-Israelis into the established nation of Israel and bring resolution to this nearly 100 year-long nightmare.

I wonder if I have got it right this time or if there is anything else that I have missed?
http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?t=30537

Chow down, baby :moon:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
vraiblonde said:
I still feel that way but since Sharon is making his folk leave maybe I wasn’t that wrong before.

I also still feel that the UN made the mess even messier after Great Britain royally screwed it up and it has just been left to fester, the UN should have fixed it years ago but lacked the fortitude to do so. Now I see Sharon is making a movement based on his beliefs in the laws of nations, his desire to bring peace to his people and what I can only assume is Arafat's departure. I guess you know better than him or anyone else for that matter what his people need or want.

All hail the all knowing (in her mind) vraiblonde. The nuker of all that dare to see the world differently then her.

Now as to “chow”ing down, if it is your butt that you want me to chew upon I know that I will be eating good throughout this winter and on into the spring. :biggrin:
 

vraiblonde

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Ken King said:
All hail the all knowing (in her mind) vraiblonde. The nuker of all that dare to see the world differently then her.
It's okay, Ken :poorbaby: I'm sure you're feeling a bit defensive right now. Had I contradicted myself in print for the whole world to see, I might feel a little defensive as well.







:lmao: :killingme :roflmao:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
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And one more thing:















HA HA!!!!!!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
:lmao:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
vraiblonde said:
And one more thing:















HA HA!!!!!!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
:lmao:
Isn't it okay to admit when you are wrong or change your position when you discover something new? Just as it is okay to admit it when you have a deep hatred of a people based on race instead of saying that you are simply making an analogy.
 

vraiblonde

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Ken King said:
Isn't it okay to admit when you are wrong or change your position when you discover something new? Just as it is okay to admit it when you have a deep hatred of a people based on race instead of saying that you are simply making an analogy.
It's perfectly okay to admit you're wrong. It makes you a bigger person and is good for your soul.

And if you want to admit you hate the Israelis because of their race, that's okay, too. :huggy:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
vraiblonde said:
It's perfectly okay to admit you're wrong. It makes you a bigger person and is good for your soul.

And if you want to admit you hate the Israelis because of their race, that's okay, too. :huggy:
No I dislike the Israelis for what they have done to us, the USS Liberty, the theft of national secrets, the hiding of murders that run from here to escape prosecution. But you know I've never called for their extermination, unlike your statements towards all Arabs.
 
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