Genesis 22

[PsyOps]

you don't think it's dumb that we start out "with satan in control" as starman said?

sounds kind of like a bad idea to me ....

Read Genesis again. We didn’t start with Satan in control. We started with man in control of his choices as given by God. It was man that had the choice (and still does). The only thing Satan is control of is his attempt to influence you. It’s up to you to allow him.

He's a bad christian for a number of reasons. Lets just go with 'thou shalt not kill' as the easy one. If you will read your bible you will see that god killed more people in one fell stroke then anyone else ever.

First of all a Christian is one that follows Christ. God does not follow Christ. God is the Father of Christ. Secondly, as God created, God can destroy as He sees fit. God set rules in front of us that we refuse to follow. We are not authorized to destroy God’s creation. However it is God’s creation to destroy. And what we destroy we cannot recover. What God destroys He can recover. As John the Baptist said:

“… And don't start saying to yourselves, 'Abraham is our father.' I tell you, God can raise up children for Abraham even from these stones.”… Luke 3:8

what makes god a christian? well nothing really as he is a murderer a million times over. what should make him christian? .... well he laid down the laws. Shouldn't he be held to them? or is it just 'do as I say and not as I do'?

You need to consider God’s perception on “killing” and death. Nothing under God’s control and command truly dies if He doesn’t will it. Death to us is when someone is removed from this earth. That is not death to God. There is a more eternal meaning to death and the human body is not where that meaning lies. It’s within the soul. And that death, only God can determine.

So you can call God a murderer while this thinking ignores that it is God created that life in the first place. The one thing you cannot escape in this discussion is our limited view on life and death and God’s eternal view and power over such life and death. HE creates it, controls it, mandates it, and ends it. It began with Him and ends with Him.

the bible isn't good enough for anyone .... it's just accepted.

Spoken like a true non-believer. I’m telling you the Bible is good enough for me and you can’t change that… AT ALL!

 

[This_person]

1. According to the belief system, God is the First Cause, so says the theist. All actions come from God -- he began everything.

2. According to the belief system, there is a specific plan in place (leading to Armageddon). The plan requires specific acts to occur in order for it to unfold. It has been foreseen, therefore every move is known. Each play is already a done deal. If you wish to do something different from what has been ordained, you cannot. Do something. Did you do it? God saw that you would do that infinitely back in time. You have no ability to make God's foreknowledge wrong.

You were not even born when he saw you do it.

Free will in the Christian worldview is an illusion. It's quite simple, really.

As noted previously, you're putting a human time constraint on someone who created time.

Doesn't work that way.

 

[PsyOps]

Ah yes....

The Deluge: A punishment inflicted on the human race by an all-knowing God, who, through not having foreseen the wickedness of men, repented of having made them, and drowned them once for all to make them better - an act which, as we all know, was accompanied by the greatest success. Allllll rightey then.

What makes you think that just because God had to destroy it he didn't foresee the fall of man. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

In the sight of God is our life or death really all that important you aim to make it that you have to assume God as a murderer? As I provided to X, God could create more people out of the stones. It's of no consequence that he killed mankind with a flood. It our souls that He is concerned with. Of course you have to believe we have a soul to begin with. Your disbelief that we have a soul makes this conversation a bit of a waste.

 

[This_person]

"God's Omniscience" implies he already knows how the game will be played out, and he does so infinitely in the past. Frankly, I don't know how to choose a path with "free will" when which path I will choose has already happened.

Again, it's an illusion of free will. I know that rankles some people, but it cannot be helped - that is what the worldview illustrates. And even the Bible supports it. Off the top of my head I can cite five places:

1. Where God hardens Pharoah's heart
2. Where Jesus specifically tells Caesar he gets his power from a higher authority (the analogy being God is interfacing with humans and giving them whatever it is they need to accomplish his goals)
3. Judas having no choice but to betray Jesus
4. Peter having no choice but to deny Jesus 3 times
5. Armageddon as told in Revelations.

So not only does the worldview force one into this conclusion, the very blueprint that defines the entire worldview (the bible) cites examples of it!

I'll grant the first one is a bit hard to explain. Perhaps that was a perception thing, because it's the reporting of God doing it, not God explaining to Moses that He did it.

As for the others, they had the choice, they just made it with someone else knowing what choice they'd made. :shrug: Not really difficult to follow.

 

[PsyOps]

"God's Omniscience" implies he already knows how the game will be played out, and he does so infinitely in the past. Frankly, I don't know how to choose a path with "free will" when which path I will choose has already happened.

Again, it's an illusion of free will. I know that rankles some people, but it cannot be helped - that is what the worldview illustrates. And even the Bible supports it. Off the top of my head I can cite five places:

1. Where God hardens Pharoah's heart
2. Where Jesus specifically tells Caesar he gets his power from a higher authority (the analogy being God is interfacing with humans and giving them whatever it is they need to accomplish his goals)
3. Judas having no choice but to betray Jesus
4. Peter having no choice but to deny Jesus 3 times
5. Armageddon as told in Revelations.

So not only does the worldview force one into this conclusion, the very blueprint that defines the entire worldview (the bible) cites examples of it!

It’s equally arguable that, devoid of God, our future is predestined anyway. That, no matter what choices you make, your destiny will pan out as it will.

Let me ask you this… how does any of your contentions disprove God? Even if you knew we were a bunch of wandering, aimless, lumps of flesh with our destinies predetermined, how does this disprove God?

If it were true that God has predestined everything (only by virtue that He knows), why does He bother giving us choices?

 

[Xaquin44]

You need to consider God’s perception on “killing” and death. Nothing under God’s control and command truly dies if He doesn’t will it. Death to us is when someone is removed from this earth. That is not death to God. There is a more eternal meaning to death and the human body is not where that meaning lies. It’s within the soul. And that death, only God can determine.

why even bother arguing if you're going to give new and exciting meaning to words.

killing is killing.

or are you going to argue that when a serial killer kills a bunch of people they aren't really dying as their souls are intact?

it's rubbish and we both know it.

God shouldn't be the exception, he should be the shining example.

 

[Xaquin44]

It’s equally arguable that, devoid of God, our future is predestined anyway. That, no matter what choices you make, your destiny will pan out as it will.

true, but that's a little off topic.

Let me ask you this… how does any of your contentions disprove God? Even if you knew we were a bunch of wandering, aimless, lumps of flesh with our destinies predetermined, how does this disprove God?

It doesn't disprove god, but it puts a fair sized hole in the religion that sprang up yammering about him.

If it were true that God has predestined everything (only by virtue that He knows), why does He bother giving us choices?

according to (parts of) the bible and various other peoples, he doesn't (of course other parts say that he does, but everyone knows there aren't contradictions in the bible).

 

[Starman3000m]

does god know where I will end up?

1.) God foreknows which decision you will make in the here and now, therefore, it is your decision (not God's) that will have determined where you end up.

2.)

have I finished my lifetime?

As long as you continue to reject God's Offer to Save your soul, you are dead right now - spiritually. Life eternal has not begun for you. So while you are physically alive, you are spiritually dead.

Christ said that we must be "born again" of the spirit in order to enter the Kingdom of God. (John 3:1-21)

if one is yes and 2 is no then it is predestination.

1.) Yes, God knows what decision you will make and 2.) Yes, Right now you are spiritually dead which places an eternal end to your lifetime.

The window of opportunity that each person is given to exercise a free-will choice on whether to accept God's Plan of Salvation through Christ is in one's lifetime. You are the only one in the position to determine your eternal fate.

the reason being that what god knows can't be changed.
simple.

Correct: Since God knows the decision you will make He will not change your decision, therefore your fate will be sealed according to what you decide regarding the Atoning Blood of His Son who took the rap for your sins and mine. BTW: There is only One Unpardonable Sin, Xaquin, and that is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit of God. I doubt you have gone that far at this time so I still pray that you will one day make that connection with God that you had tried once, or twice, before.

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. (Mark 3:28-30)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:8-12)

 

[PsyOps]

why even bother arguing if you're going to give new and exciting meaning to words.

killing is killing.

or are you going to argue that when a serial killer kills a bunch of people they aren't really dying as their souls are intact?

it's rubbish and we both know it.

God shouldn't be the exception, he should be the shining example.

Isn’t it amazing that you think you know what I know? And yet you question God’s omniscience. I’m trying to point out that God, being the creator of life, does not see death in the same way we do. What is God destroying except what He already created? It is His to do with as He wills. We don’t have the luxury of knowing or questioning God’s moves and motives. No matter how much you disagree with it God is still going to do what is His will. I have no expectation that a non-believer would understand this.

 

[PsyOps]

true, but that's a little off topic.



It doesn't disprove god, but it puts a fair sized hole in the religion that sprang up yammering about him.



according to (parts of) the bible and various other peoples, he doesn't (of course other parts say that he does, but everyone knows there aren't contradictions in the bible).

Then you argue about things that you cannot change. It all boils down to faith.

 

[wxtornado]

You were not predestined by God to go to heaven or hell.

Oh, I see. God is not the author of existence then?

Please think this through. If God breated everything, then he created the laws that define how existence works. Either he is the ultimate author, or he isn't.

Which is it?

 

[PsyOps]

Ahhh lets side track the current conversation eh?

The current conversation isnt about disproving God, its about the fallacy of Free Will.

Before you try to redirect on that comment, we're talking about followers/believers who Preach the word of God, and claim they have free will. When their instruction books are replete with refrences and contradictions to the contrary.

Oh come on. Read the first sentence I posted.

It’s equally arguable that, devoid of God, our future is predestined anyway. That, no matter what choices you make, your destiny will pan out as it will.

You know as well I do that the entire context of these debates always revolves around disproving the existence of a God: "What kind of God would kill?"; "If God can do anything can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?"; "If God really knows everything beforehand, then how can we have free will. If he doesn't know everything beforehand, then how can you claim He is God?".

 

[wxtornado]

You know as well I do that the entire context of these debates always revolves around disproving the existence of a God.

Actually, no.

Things that show no evidence of concrete existence are impossible to disprove. Science cannot disprove negatives. One must take the rational approach in such cases, or else we would live in a world where any claim -- no matter how fantastical -- would have equal veracity with any other claims.

I can no more disprove the nonexistence of a nonexisting being (God) than I could disprove the non-existence of a non-existing mythical character, like the Minotaur. The fact that they don't exhibit any actual physical signs of existence (except assertion supported by no concrete evidence) means they do not exist except as unsupported assertion.

Support the assertion with something concrete, and then we can test that assertion for accuracy. A great exmaple on the scientific side is evolution: Once it was just an idea in a couple of people's heads. But then, after building a case for it, it was shown to have validity.

Can theism match that?

 

[Xaquin44]

Can theism match that?

hurf-a-durf we're here aren't we lolololol

sorry, I figured I'd go ahead and take care of that one (like it means anything).

 

[This_person]

Support the assertion with something concrete, and then we can test that assertion for accuracy. A great exmaple on the scientific side is evolution: Once it was just an idea in a couple of people's heads. But then, after building a case for it, it was shown to have validity.

Can theism match that?

And, the evidence of a daughter species with more genetic information than the parent species? The test of that assertion for accuracy?

Oh, that's right, there isn't any. The case built up is purely fantastical man-made drivel, just like the assertion that religions are.

 

[wxtornado]

And, the evidence of a daughter species with more genetic information than the parent species? The test of that assertion for accuracy?

"More genetic information"?? Meaning what exactly?

 

[This_person]

"More genetic information"?? Meaning what exactly?

More complex. The difference between a mosquito and a dog. I'm more than likely not using the proper, specific terminology because I don't claim to be a biologist; but, I think you get what I mean.

Plus, the ability to sustain a new species. Meaning, if you put 10 people on another planet somewhere, we fully believe that there is not enough genetic diversity to sustain those people as able to populate that planet. Yet, we think that a single celled organism had enough genetically diverse information to completely populate this planet with 100 times the life currently on it.

It really makes absolutely no more sense than any religious argument.

 

[wxtornado]

More complex. The difference between a mosquito and a dog. I'm more than likely not using the proper, specific terminology because I don't claim to be a biologist; but, I think you get what I mean.

Actually, no, I have no idea what you mean - it's why I asked. Do you know what the definition of a "species" is?

 

[PsyOps]

Actually, no.

Things that show no evidence of concrete existence are impossible to disprove. Science cannot disprove negatives. One must take the rational approach in such cases, or else we would live in a world where any claim -- no matter how fantastical -- would have equal veracity with any other claims.

We do live in such a world. The scientific community is largely convinced there are black holes, even though there is no concrete evidence of them. They are convinced life popped up out of coincidental chemical reactions. What could be more “fantastical” than the Big Bang theory or man-caused global warming? None of which has been concretely proven. None of which is any more believable than God, except through personal belief.

I can no more disprove the nonexistence of a nonexisting being (God) than I could disprove the non-existence of a non-existing mythical character, like the Minotaur. The fact that they don't exhibit any actual physical signs of existence (except assertion supported by no concrete evidence) means they do not exist except as unsupported assertion.

Written like a true non-believer. For someone that claims they cannot disprove the “nonexistence of a nonexisting being” you sure spend a lot of time doing so.

Support the assertion with something concrete, and then we can test that assertion for accuracy. A great exmaple on the scientific side is evolution: Once it was just an idea in a couple of people's heads. But then, after building a case for it, it was shown to have validity.

Can theism match that?

Okay… here is your homework assignment. Prove to me, concretely, that our existence is a result of evolution. Don’t give me a bunch of hypotheticals or theories. I want absolute concrete, physical proof.

 

[Xaquin44]

We do live in such a world. The scientific community is largely convinced there are black holes, even though there is no concrete evidence of them. They are convinced life popped up out of coincidental chemical reactions. What could be more “fantastical” than the Big Bang theory or man-caused global warming? None of which has been concretely proven. None of which is any more believable than God, except through personal belief.

no. you are 100% wrong. no one is convinced, which is why there is constant testing going on to try and prove or disprove said existance.

Okay… here is your homework assignment. Prove to me, concretely, that our existence is a result of evolution. Don’t give me a bunch of hypotheticals or theories. I want absolute concrete, physical proof.

impossible and everyone knows it. However, it is in the works =) Evolution is already proven. The rest will probably fall in place. Either way, there is more evidence pointing to the scientific theory (some) then god (none).