Genesis 22

[Starman3000m]

Yes, because that would either make you a Messianic Jew (which is quite interesting) or a liar. Jews believe Jesus was a great teacher and prophet, but not the Messiah.

Correction: Some Orthodox Jews believe Jesus was a great teacher and prophet, but not the Messiah.

Others believe Yeshua was a fraud, blasphemer and false prophet. That is why they called for and instigated His death by crucifixion under the Roman rule of punishment for sedition and treason. But - it had to be.

Remember that the very first thousand men, women and children who became followers of Yeshua were all Jews who accepted Him as the prophesied Moschiach. Many were persecuted by the Orthodox Jews and were martyrd for their belief in Him.

Biblically, there is no longer a distinction between Jews and non-Jews when one accepts Yeshua, as we then become Born-Again Children of God through faith in His Atoning Blood.

There will always be distinctions in Judaism; Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox/Hassidic, Conservative, Messianic, etc.. I am Messianic with the expectation that Yeshua will not return until antichrist has had his time to deceive Israel and the world as prophesied.

 

[migtig]

Remember that the very first thousand men, women and children who became followers of Yeshua were all Jews who accepted Him as the prophesied Moschiach. Many were persecuted by the Orthodox Jews and were martyrd for their belief in Him..

Actually that's not really true either. The majority of his followers were made up of a mixture of GENTILES and Jews.

Biblically, there is no longer a distinction between Jews and non-Jews when one accepts Yeshua, as we then become Born-Again Children of God through faith in His Atoning Blood.

Actually, I'm not aware of too many Christians that would agree with you there. Nor am I aware of too many Jews who believe that either.

There will always be distinctions in Judaism; Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox/Hassidic, Conservative, Messianic, etc.. I am Messianic with the expectation that Yeshua will not return until antichrist has had his time to deceive Israel and the world as prophesied. ..

True, there are many distinct world faiths - among Christians and among Jews and even among Buddahists; other than that, I'm going to pull the card on you. You are just blowing smoke and seeing which way the wind blows and you want to use a lot of hyperbole to mask the fact that you don't really know what you are talking about. :shrug: To each their own I guess, but you shouldn't attempt to sway others to your way of thinking by lying by omission or by using misleading statements. JMO.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...

Actually, I'm not aware of too many Christians that would agree with you there. Nor am I aware of too many Jews who believe that either.
....

If the Christians believe the Bible, they would believe this.

Romans 10:4-17

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Greek being a way of saying gentile.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Actually that's not really true either. The majority of his followers were made up of a mixture of GENTILES and Jews.
....

The Bible is your friend when you want to really know what it says.

Jesus came to the Jews. He only went to the Gentiles when the Jews rejected Him. One example.

Matthew 15:21-28

21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.

22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."

24But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"

26And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

27But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

 

[Starman3000m]

Actually, I'm not aware of too many Christians that would agree with you there. Nor am I aware of too many Jews who believe that either.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Galatians 3:25-27)

add:

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:15-17)

 

[Starman3000m]

Jesus's brother James did not believe him to be the Messiah

James was a major leader for the growth of a Church, but the beliefs of that Church are different than the beliefs you hold.

The Nazarene Jew belief (Different than the Church of Nazaraene) believe that Jesus was a man (not clear if he was a prophet) and after Jesus/Yeshu died, "Nazarenes" after Jesus' hometown of Nazareth, became his followers.

Jesus' brother James, was head of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem until he was also executed by the Romans. The Nazarenes observed Jewish laws. The Romans killed many Nazarenes, for being observant Jews, during the Jewish revolt. Jews believe Jesus was a founder of a religious movement, or more specifically of the sect of the Nazarenes within Judaism.

Jesus/Yeshu own brother didnt believe he was the Messiah

According to Nazarene Jews, Jesus was a Jewish man who was executed and later given divine status by the Christian church, there is a distinction.

(Excerpts)

After the miraculous conception of Jesus, Mary and Joseph had other children as well. The gospels report that Jesus had at least four brothers and some sisters: “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren’t all his sisters with us?” (Matthew 13:55, also Mark 6:3). And the gospels also record, that while Jesus was alive, his brothers did not believe in Him: “For even his own brothers did not believe in him” (John 7:5). The Scriptures do not sugarcoat this. The lack of belief by James and the other brothers is corroborated by the absolute silence about them in the gospels. None of the accounts of Jesus’ ministry mentions them in any role.

However, after the resurrection, in the earliest years of Christianity, James, the brother of Jesus, became a significant player in the movement. In Galatians 1:19, Paul explicitly identified him as one of the only two individuals he met with during his 37 AD trip to Jerusalem : “I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.” So, there cannot be any doubt that James, [42] Jesus’ brother, had within four years of the resurrection not only converted to Christianity; he had become a recognized leader in the early church.

All in all, it is a well founded conclusion that James, the brother of Jesus – like Paul – made a remarkable conversion from a non-believer during the lifetime of Jesus to a leader in the earliest years of the Christian movement and was ultimately stoned for his faith. Although the personal appearance of the risen Jesus to His brother James is reported only once in the New Testament, this reported encounter is part of the powerful early resurrection creed dated back to only a few years after the resurrection. And one can wonder: What could have ever happened to James that could have converted him to a believer apart from the appearance of the resurrected Christ? James knew Jesus while He was alive and certainly knew about His teachings and even Jesus’ miracles. None of this, however, convinced him, so what could the apostles have said to convince this man? Logically, only a personal encounter with Jesus, as mentioned by Paul, would explain his 180 degree change in beliefs and actions.

Windmill Ministries - Christian Apologetics

 

[Starman3000m]

Actually, that's not really true. The name Yeshua come from Joshua's Hebrew name, Yehoshua, which sometimes appears in its shortened form, Yeshua. Yeshua transalted into Greek becomes Iesous. In English the "y" sound was rendered as "j" and hence Jesus.

Agreed - but what I was previously referring to is that if Yeshua went anywhere in the world His correct and given name would still be Yeshua.

"In the days of Jesus people only had one name. Last names were not introduced before the time of Napoleon. To differentiate between people with the same name a unique characteristic was attached to the name, like the place they were from (Jesus of Nazareth or Mary of Magdalene), names of family members (such as Jesus, son of Joseph; or Mary, the mother of Jesus), professions (like Joseph the carpenter; or Cuza, the manager of Herod’s household) or some other feature (such as John the Baptist; or Simon who was also called the Zealot).

In Hebrew Jesus would have been called Yeshua (Jeshua) or Joshua which literally means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is savior.” The Greek word Christ or the Latin Christus both translate the Hebrew Messiah, which means in English “the anointed one.”

So, Jesus Christ literally means 'Jesus, the Messiah' or “Jesus, the anointed One.”'

Windmill Ministries - Christian Apologetics

 

[Dougstermd]

You spelled hoping wrong.

but you get the point of my post weather hoping or hopping:

 

[Dougstermd]

Half-brother, that is; and only at the beginning was James skeptical. The miracles Yeshua performed and His Ultimate Resurrection convinced him that Yeshua was indeed the Son of God. Just as the Roman Centurion realized:

The siblings born to Joseph and Mary were Yeshua's Half-brothers & sisters:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. (Mark 6:3)

Re: The Centurion:

"And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
(Mark 15:38-39)

Half brother? How do you have a half brother from a virgin???????

there is some BS here?

 

[Starman3000m]

Half brother? How do you have a half brother from a virgin???????

there is some BS here?

Two siblings who have the same mother but a different father are half-brother or half sister to one another.

Yeshua was born through the Divine Intervention of God through the Holy Spirit.

Although Joseph and Mary were married, the marriage was not consummated sexually until after the birth of Christ, thus allowing Mary to remain pure and untouched through her pregnancy. After Christ was born, Joseph and Mary had children together, thus, those children were the half-brothers/sisters of Christ.

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:23-25)

 

[Xaquin44]

god all knocking up some guys wife.

I thought you weren't supposed to do that kind of stuff.

lead by example god!

 

[This_person]

god all knocking up some guys wife.

I thought you weren't supposed to do that kind of stuff.

lead by example god!

God didn't actually do it. It was just a random act of evolution, where a person spontaneously gives birth to a saviour (kinda like that spontaneous way the planet gave birth to life where no life existed before, and that single life form had enough genetic information for all the life that followed).

 

[Starman3000m]

Jewish teaching of Messiah

“For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand; he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” ( Isaiah 53:2-12)

Jewish Prophets Describe the Messiah - Jesus Central jesuscentral.com Life-of-jesus-ancient

 

[SamSpade]

Jesus's brother James did not believe him to be the Messiah

Certainly not during his lifetime, but clearly much later - he was regarded as a pillar of the Jerusalem church.

His mother and brothers were believers after his death, and were with the Eleven when they chose Matthias to replace Judas. Tradition also has it that James the Lord's brother wrote the book bearing his name, and similarly that his brother Jude wrote the book bearing his name.

 

[Starman3000m]

god all knocking up some guys wife.

I thought you weren't supposed to do that kind of stuff.

lead by example god!

Mary conceived the Christ-Child before she and Joseph were married.

Fact is, when Joseph found out Mary was pregnant (he knew the child wasn't his) he was ready to cancel the marriage plans and have her sent away so as to help her save face. Here is the Biblical context of that circumstance as found in the Gospel of Matthew, Ch.1:

18: Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19: Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24: Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
(Matthew 1:18-25)

 

[Xaquin44]

that's not where I was going really.

I mean, god can make people from nothing .... why knock up some guys wife?

did he even ask Mary?

 

[Starman3000m]

that's not where I was going really.

I mean, god can make people from nothing .... why knock up some guys wife?

did he even ask Mary?

Yes. Here is the account from Luke, Ch. 1:

26: And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27: To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28: And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29: And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30: And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31: And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32: He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34: Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36: And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37: For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38: And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39: And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

 

[MMDad]

Although Joseph and Mary were married, the marriage was not consummated sexually until after the birth of Christ,

Mary conceived the Christ-Child before she and Joseph were married.

Which one of your statements is correct?

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:23-25)

So why did they call him Jesus instead of Emmanuel?

 

[Xaquin44]

that wasn't really asking though.

more like sending a hired goon to tell her.

edit: response to two posts up.

 

[SamSpade]

that's not where I was going really.

I mean, god can make people from nothing .... why knock up some guys wife?

did he even ask Mary?

Well, among other things - it was foretold as such, in many passages. And you don't just bounce into the Jewish world by spontaneously being formed out of dust. Aside from being born in Bethlehem, from the seed of Jesse yada yada yada - you don't typically get considered a Jew if someone just found you somewhere. As it still is, via Jewish custom you were Jewish if your mother was Jewish, because while paternity may sometimes be in question, maternity never is.

Secondly - she wasn't "married" to Joseph - as the verses quoted clearly show - in the sense we know. They were betrothed which meant legally married according to Jewish law, but not completed, because they were obviously not living under the same roof yet, and the marriage still had not been consummated.